Bridging The Divide

This is the Number One downloaded episode of the Kindness Matters Podcast.

You can feel the country pulling apart in tiny, personal ways: the friend you stop texting, the family group chat you mute, the coworker you avoid because one comment could turn into a fight. We want a different path, so we sit down with Bill Groner, a longtime trial lawyer who represented more than 10,000 Ground Zero responders after 9/11 and now teaches depolarization and civil dialogue skills to college students. His work is rooted in one big idea: society gets healthier when we practice “we” instead of “me,” especially when it’s hardest. 

We dig into why political polarization escalates so fast, how confirmation bias and stereotypes load conversations with negative emotion before anyone speaks, and why intellectual humility is a real-world communication tool, not a slogan. Bill shares lessons from applied positive psychology, including the importance of balancing negative emotions with positive ones, and how shifting your goal from winning to understanding can change the entire tone of a disagreement. 

From there, we get practical. Bill breaks down curious questions that invite honesty rather than defensiveness, the subtle difference tone makes when you ask something hard, and the active listening habits that build trust quickly. We also talk about workshop tools like paraphrasing, the “one mic rule,” and the LAPP framework from Braver Angels (listen, acknowledge, pivot, perspective), plus how these skills apply to marriages, parenting, friendships, and workplace conflict, not just politics. 

If you want better conversations with people you love, even when you disagree, hit play. Subscribe to Kindness Matters, share this with someone who values connection, and leave a review so more listeners can find these dialogue skills.

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“Intro music: ‘Human First’ by Mike Baker – YouTube Music: https://youtu.be/wRXqkYVarGA | Podcast: Still Here, Still Trying | Website: www.mikebakerhq.com 

Transcript

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Why Connection Feels Hard Now

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You're listening to a very special episode of the Kindness Matters Podcast. Our top three most listened to episodes. This is the Kindness Matters Podcast, a space for stories that inspire, challenge, and bring us a little closer together. If you've been looking for a reminder of the good in people, you're in the right place. Because kindness matters, and so do you. Welcome to the show, everybody. Welcome to a brand new year. I am your host, Mike Rathbun. And it's almost a cliche these days to say that we as Americans are divided now more than at almost any time in our history. And as we start a new year and a new presidential administration, many of us have lost so many connections over the past few years. Coworkers, friends, and family members find it almost impossible to carry on a conversation with people that we used to. What we all need is someone who can teach us how to be better, how to communicate in a deep and meaningful way with others that are important to us. My guest today is Bill Grohner, and he is involved in many projects that at their core share a deep interest in how individuals can be their best selves, and society can achieve its best harmony. He was a trial lawyer for more than three decades, notably representing over 10,000 ground zero responders after their toxic dust exposure while cleaning up the site post-9-11. The near decade-long lawsuit labeled the most complex mass tort in history gave Bill a singular and unparalleled window into humanity's selflessness in times of need and the positivity despite peril. Utilizing the myriad of lessons learned from his ground zero responder clients, Bill speaks regularly about how society can find better harmony by emphasizing we instead of me. And by adopting the skills and traits he has witnessed comprising human contentment and happiness. Bill earned his master's degree in applied positive psychology from the University of Pennsylvania just this year. Congratulations. And he is extensively involved in adopting depolarization workshops and other curricula for various educational institutions, giving students their best possible to navigate the complexities inherent in today's society. Welcome to the show, Bill. Thank you, Mike. Pleasure to be here. That was quite I think that was the longest intro I've ever done. I mean it was all necessary. But yeah. How

Ground Zero And The Power Of We

SPEAKER_00 3:05

are you today, sir? I'm doing really well. Excellent, excellent, excellent. Um and I there's you have so much. Wow. I I could speak to you just probably for a couple hours about that 9-11 or the yeah, the responder case. A decade that took, huh?

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Yeah, I mean, if you can imagine having uh, you know, 10,000 people um with each having disparate uh situations. They all had uh different exposures, they had different illnesses. So uh the judge uh did not certify it as a class action. It was literally 10,000 uh individual lawsuits all joined together.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Oh my gosh. So it wasn't like you could just settle one and and move on.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

No, no, not at all. I mean, about eight years into it, uh we had a proposal and it required 95% of the people to sign off on it, uh, which was its own uh adventure, uh, and each one would get uh a compensation package uh based particularly on their circumstances. But that's fair though.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

I I mean that's that seems like that's the best right way to do it.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Oh, I think um I'm very comfortable with what we did. I mean, I I as a plaintiff's lawyer, I always want to get more from my clients, and I wished I'd gotten a lot more, but there were huge practicalities and obstacles and limitations, and I'm I'm really pleased with the result, and I think justice worked out.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, and because of all of that, you got an understanding into the way people communicate, and you said I should probably teach this to people. Now, uh are you are you actively teaching college?

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Yeah, uh not a professor, um as a volunteer. Uh I've uh I taught about 1,400 uh uh first-year college students uh dialogue skills. But I just want to go back and have closure on ground zero. It it wasn't that I saw dialogue from that experience, but what I saw was selflessness. I saw people, in this case the responders, putting others uh before themselves. And uh and they were poorly treated and they weren't compensated for many years and they weren't given respiratory protection. But yet uh almost to a man and a woman, they they would say in testimony, if I had to go back, I'd do it again. Uh and they really looked at you know society as a whole, and I think that's what dialogue does. Uh dialogue um you know gives you the opportunity to look at the other person and their perspective as important and not just your own perspective. Uh and you know, if more people I think did that, if we all did it more, um society um uh benefits and we create uh a better harmony.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Yeah, and harmony that's that's what a lot of this is all about, right? Is that is it that we of as Americans, as citizens, have lost our harmony?

SPEAKER_01 6:20

I think so. I mean, uh my feeling is that it's not the adversity in life that fractures things, it's how we respond to the adversity. So, you know, we have a very complex society. We have 330 million people. Um, putting us all

Differences Without Losing Harmony

SPEAKER_01 6:40

uh together uh is almost an experiment to figure out how we can best get along.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

And uh we have differences. We will always have differences, but differences can be looked at as a strength and not a weakness. And uh the concerns that I'm work walking around trying to deal with is that people look at the differences as a negative instead of a positive, and they respond negatively to it, and they and they are negatively impacted, at least they feel they are.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Yeah, for sure. We weren't always this way though, or were we? I I I it's funny because earlier this year I was I don't remember where it was, but I saw an old video of Frank Sinatra. And he was talking to these kids about all of us are different, and you know, Joey's dad is is Jewish, and Tommy's dad is, and that's what makes us great. So I I I think we kind of all grasped that and we all understood it, but somewhere along the line something changed.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

You know, I I often think about that. I look at my uh my father's and my grandparents' generations, and there was a certainly a larger amount of civility. And to me, uh what felt like a bigger focus on character. Um, but I don't know that there was less differences back then. It seems over the years there's a greater comfort in expressing differences, which I think is fine as long as it's done in a constructive way.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Civilly, yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Yeah, absolutely. It's it's how we approach each other when we differ. Um and um uh and you know, and a lot of the work that we do is is dialogue, but it's also an advance of the dialogue. It's really a conception, it's going into this these circumstances and just living this world. And and I think number one, intellectual humility is important. Um, we all don't know as much as we think we do. And and you know, we could all be more intellectually humble and be more open-minded to different perspectives. I mean, that's uh the first sort of mindset thing I think is really critical for people to have. And another thing that's going on is that there's a lot of emotional responses right now. And emotions are uh, especially negative emotions, they're you know historically and evolutionary, they're they're they're important for health. Um they you know the fight or flight mechanism we have protects us, um, and narrows our focus. But a lot of people um are having significant negative emotions just on things that they don't need to have negative emotions about. And from the positive psychology world, they say negative emotions are important, but you want to have them in balance with positive emotions. They actually came up with a ratio of around three to one that uh healthiest people have um uh three for every three you know positive emotions and thoughts, there's one negative. So there's a balance because you can't ignore the negativity. But I'm finding a lot of people

Humility And The Emotion Balance

SPEAKER_01 10:10

right now are having uh uh negativity in ways they don't need to. Yeah. I'll give you an I'll give you an example. I mean, I think a lot, you know, a lot people, and I hate to divide us into left and right, but just for the purposes of this conversation, because we're so much more complicated and nuanced than that. But many people I'm finding lately uh on the left uh look at the people on the right, and the people on the right look at the people on the left in very stereotypical, generalized, almost hysterical terms. And they're grouping people together in ways that it's unfair, um, and doesn't necessarily apply. And and the result of that is when you then talk to somebody on the other side from you, you're taking these notions, these generalizations, this demonization, a lot of them uh create a negative emotion, and you're you're applying that to the person even before you speak to them. And and something called social scientists called um confirmation bias.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

So if you're you're talking to somebody, let's assume somebody on the left is talking to somebody who voted for Donald Trump, uh, they may look at that person and say, oh, they're a Trumper, they believe in January 6th. And if you go in just with that thought to that conversation, um, number one, it's wrong. You don't know that. Uh but number two, more importantly, it's going to give you a negative emotion and it's going to basically tip the scales on the conversation before it even happens.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Yeah, I and I was gonna ask you about that. I'm glad you brought it up, though. Uh and uh for example, I see a lot of my friends on the left, um, and I think this is what you're talking about. Let me know if I'm wrong, um, that refuse to accept or respect anything that someone on the right says because they feel like that person voted for someone who has claimed that they want to do harm to someone they love, an immigrant, a woman of childbearing age, uh, a member of the LGBT community. How do we get past that?

SPEAKER_01 12:34

How do we is that what you were talking about with the the passion or the generalization and and the bias?

unknown 12:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

Um yeah, I mean that's a perfect example. And I'm seeing that also, I'm seeing that uh quite a bit. I'm seeing you know, friends not uh who are uh had with with uh won't talk to their high school friends because they voted for somebody on the other side and family members unable to speak. How do you get past it? Um the first question is I mean, it's a very complex question, but there's a lot of answers. And in the workshops that we're providing, we're seeing a lot of profound impacts on a positive basis. Um, I mean the first question is, you know, what's the goal of the conversation? You know, uh I guess let's just take it at the beginning, which is some people don't even want to have that conversation. Uh let's say it's with a high school friend that they were friendly with, and now they don't even want to talk to them, they unfriend them, or they don't want to engage. Now, I guess the question arises first is what would be the goal that you could have with this conversation? Um, and there's a lot of goals for conversation. You know, one could be simply to connect with that person, that friend that you have. You know, the other could be to actually, you know, understand that other person, you know, have empathy, um, just so you can understand how people differ from you think. And just connect to that.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

That's a noble goal, though, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Um, well, I mean, I I think it's a very healthy goal. And what we'll talk about in a workshop, uh, how we're accomplishing that and how we can all do that. Because how cool is it if that if we could take different opinions that we disagree with that we actually look at negatively, and maybe we think we're harmful, and instead of having a negative emotional state, we have a more curious, inquisitive state, and we actually learn what is going on in their minds. I mean, so one way to get around, and just back to your question, how about a simple question that somebody from the left who doesn't even want to hear from a Trump supporter? Well, let's say, let's assume it's a friend of theirs. You know, how you handle strangers and casual acquaintances and good friends will be different. But let's assume it's a high school friend that you have a relationship with. Sure. How about simply asking the question of why did you vote for Donald Trump? Now, a lot of them don't even want to even get there because they're so emotionally caught up in if you voted for Trump, you're a bad person. Right. Um, and you know, my response to those people is how don't you want to know why your friend voted? Don't you want to understand them better? I mean, maybe it's a reason that you'll think is appropriate or proper or fine. Um so uh, you know, how about just that? Just like, why not ask the question? A lot of people are afraid of hearing the answer, but um how can you be afraid of understanding your high school buddy, you know, what's going on in their mind? And you know, and people on the left are thinking if you voted for Trump, you're probably in favor of January 6th, then you're an authoritarian. But no, that is an outrageous generalization.

unknown 16:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

You know, very few people who voted for Trump believe that January 6th was a good thing. Very few people think that his character is impeccable. Very few Trump supporters think that authoritarianism is the proper way for our society to go politically in the future. Right. Um, and and if you can sort of get beyond those generalizations, just say, hey, why? Talk to me more. You could, you know, so we work on curiosity, we work on uh, you know, curious inquiry just to understand other people and ask curious questions.

Curious Questions That Lower Defenses

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Okay, I was gonna ask about that. Is that a curious question? It is a curious question. Because I've heard that before, I've heard that term. Um and it's it seems like a great way to start a conversation. Why? Why did you vote this way? Whatever way it was, you know. Um what would be a good follow-up to that? Um what did what do you expect he'll do that will be good for you?

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Well, sure, but I think you're you're you're you're you're trying to step around eggshells. I mean, I think it's okay to go harder at it. I think, you know, this is you know, again, this is a high school friend. Right. You know, with a stranger, maybe not. Um, but let's just go back to curious questions for a second. Curious questions are questions designed, good curious questions are designed to understand. Okay? There's bad curious questions. You know, questions such as, don't you think that the, you know, he will do this, you know, places people on the defensive, puts them in a corner. That's not a good curious question. That's uh a question with a design attached to it, and the design is not to understand. A good curious question, you just want to understand them more. You want to understand their thoughts, their feelings, their beliefs, their their experiences, their priorities. You just really want to connect. To me, conversation, the benefits of conversation and curious conversation are to connect with somebody. Because at the end of the day, we are social animals. We want to feel good about each other, we want to connect, even if we disagree. So, types of curious questions to follow up is why you vote for Trump, could be, and you can go right at it. It's like, aren't you concerned about his character? Aren't you concerned that, you know, uh some uh kindergarten kids will look at him and think that that is not the type of character that should be in the president? Are you concerned with his appointments? Are you concerned that this will happen? Do you believe he has authoritarian tendencies? Do you um, you know, are you concerned about his lack of expertise in foreign affairs? It's okay, depending upon your audience, to ask these questions. And because the goal to me and the workshops we're giving is to connect with others by asking curious questions because you're respecting and not judging the other person. So if I'm respecting you, if my tone, and tone is so important, is like, you know, you know, so think about uh this question. One tone that is a positive, you know, tone one's a negative. You know, are you concerned about his character? Or aren't you concerned about his character?

SPEAKER_00 19:28

There's a huge difference in those two.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Huge difference. One is annoyed, it's it's it's negative energy, it's putting somebody in the corner, and the other one is like, I really need to know. Maybe you can help me because I am concerned. So one of the yeah, one of the benefits of curious questions is number one, you're you're connecting with someone, you're not judging them. Number two, you're learning more about what they think. And it may, and your questions may help them refine what they're thinking. And I'm not suggesting that should be the goal, but your questions and their answers may help you rethink and understand better how you think about the issue. It's really great information. You're connecting all the way through, and you're bonding. And you're finding a lot of times, people we found in our workshops when people talk to each other with curiosity when they disagree, they find so many elements of connection and commonality that they walk away from the conversation that like they feel good about it. They feel like, wow, that was a good conversation that they never thought they could have.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Yeah, right. I think another thing that a lot of us do, um, is that when we're listening, and I think I'm guilty of this. I know I'm guilty of it. I don't, there's no think about it. Um, is that we're not listening to understand, we're listening to respond. I think in my head I'm going, I know what this guy's gonna say when I ask this question, and I'm gonna get him when he gets. Oh, I hope I wonder how that came out. I'm gonna get him when he answers. And and that's that's kind of dangerous, isn't it? We need to get away from that. How can we listen to understand better?

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Well, um, yes, we see that all the time. And I'm guilty of it, and many people are guilty of that. Uh, it's almost human nature to, when you're talking about a topic, to think about your perspective, to protect your perspective, and then engage in the conversation as though you're right, the other person is wrong, and you're gonna start talking to them to sort of bring them to that conclusion.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Well that you know, you're gonna fail at the first moment, right there. Um we we've asked our students this, uh, our college uh freshmen. You know, um, when you're having conversations with people, are you trying to win? You know, what Is the goal? And a lot of them say that no, no, I just want to talk to them about the issue. And they said, okay, if you don't if you want to talk to them about

Active Listening And The One Mic

SPEAKER_01 22:10

the issue, and you don't want it to be a debate, you have to change your mindset from questions to win to questions to understand. And they you create a mindset of the goal is to understand the other person so that I can walk away being better connected with a different view. Um, and and so the first year we did this workshop with 600 students. We um we did a workshop that um had them uh talk to people and then you know give your own perspective, maybe find common ground and compromise. And we found that was way too much work to do in a two-hour workshop because the students were having problems just asking curious questions. They couldn't get past um the how do I ask curious questions to not to win but to understand. So in our workshops, we just do a series of exercises. Your whole goal is to have the right tone, to actively listening, and we talk about active listening techniques and to ask curious questions. And then here's what they do: they they we give them a tepid question, like ask the other person why they went to this school. And this is Binghamton University, where we're doing this program, my alma mater. Uh uh, and the goal is ask to understand, not to win. Uh, in this case, there's really nothing to win. Um, and we've already gone over what tone, body language, eye contact. We've uh talked about when somebody speaks, you paraphrase, so active listening techniques like paraphrasing or uh or reframing so that you're telling them, oh, I heard you. Oh, in other words, oh, so what you're saying is. So you're already out of this mindset of winning, and you're out of, you're into, I hear you, is this what you're saying? Um, you reflect on what they're saying. Uh you don't cut them off. Uh we have what's called a one mic rule where one person speaks at a time, which tells the other person, I hear you, I'm listening. That one mic rule is one of the biggest things I think that we've taught students to help them get out of the win. Because as soon as they are listening and are trying and like about to cut off, they realize, oh no, don't cut off. My goal is to listen, not to respond. Um, and then and then they ask uh curious questions. We talk about what was a curious question, it's open-ended, it's it's not leading or judgmental, it has a positive framing. So they actually develop the skill in practice, and then the other person they spoke to looks at all these about 20 skills that we've talked about and then grades them and says, Here's what I saw you did. Generally, what you did right. We like to commend what they did well. So we're now reinforcing the curiosity. Then they do another exercise that's a little bit more difficult than another one, and then we get into political and social issues. So they actually are practicing over two hours, asking curious questions, not to win, and getting feedback on how well they did.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

That's amazing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's amazing. I mean, just I mean, you guys are developing a whole new generation of good listeners and good communicators. I think. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_01 25:37

I think so. I mean, I I love hanging out with uh people in their 20s because they're incredibly smart. I mean, a lot has been written about Gen Z and their anxiety, uh the enhanced suicide rate, social media negative impacts, but a lot, not a lot has been written about uh their um socialemotional skills, uh, their um the the amount of information they have available, their intense curiosity. Uh I I think they are um I believe in in Gen Z as to bring us through this very complicated society that we have into the future. And I share that with them. I want them to have the agency to feel that they can make a difference. And yes, I I do feel uh, at least in these workshops, we're making an impact. My my biggest concern is the maintenance of the behaviors, and that's what we're working on next year because you can do something in two hours and and everybody walks away and says, wow, I learned a skill, but are they using that skill? And that that is a great concern to me of behavior uh modification, how do you change behavior on an ongoing basis? And we're working on you know follow-up exercises, journaling, uh um uh, and other opportunities where the students can actually have these behaviors reinforced, and where at Binghamton we're trying to create a culture at the campus where it's reinforced with the faculty, etc.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

For somebody like myself who's not going to school anymore, um how do these things become common practice? What can I do? Is it just being aware when you're having a conversation to ask curious questions and to practicing listening to understand?

SPEAKER_01 27:29

I mean, I'm trying to go ahead. Um I think a mindset of I want to understand people that voted differently or think differently before I start engaging with my perspective

Making Dialogue Skills Stick

SPEAKER_01 27:50

and what commonality and common ground we have, because those are more advanced energies that you need a foundation. So people, before they start talking about, well, you know, where they differ, where they agree, and maybe where there's common ground, there has to be a foundation of understanding and respect. So the skills I'm talking about just are those preliminary preliminary skills of just, and if you just try that right now, and you know, we've talked about left and the right, but we're just talking right to the left. I mean, you know, and the the right has, you know, has the exact same, you know, opportunities and issues and obstacles. Um, you know, the you know, and very fair conversations are people, the right to the left is like, you know, the candidate that you were voting for. You know, she changed from far left to moderate left. At least that's what I thought. What did you think about that? How do you feel about you know, politicians just changing based on the tone and tenor? So um we we have talked about mostly one side to another, but it's bilateral. But I think step one is just start practicing being comfortable talking to people you disagree with just to understand what they're thinking about. And by the way, this relates to with your partner, with your spouse, with your kids, with your coworkers, and this isn't just social or political issues. If somebody has an issue with something that you did, instead of getting defensive, instead of leading with your emotions, just saying, wow, tell me what your thoughts are. And this is basic marital therapy 101, uh, but a lot of us just don't do it, which is, oh, tell me more. You know, what's your concern? How did it impact you? You know, just uh, you know, why do you feel that way? Uh what can I do differently? Which is not easy to do, um, but is enormously simple.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

And enormously effective. If you want to have a healthy relationship.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

You know, during our uh my core, my master's program in positive psychology at University of Pennsylvania, one of our lecturers was Isaac Proletensky, who is the leading researcher in the world on mattering. And his philosophies that are well written, researched, and supported is that we need to matter for human flourishing. We need to, and mattering was we feel valued and we feel we give value. The number one way to feel valued, to tell somebody that they have value, is to look at them in the eyes and ask them, why do you feel that way? Tell me more. So, I mean, it's you know, in terms of societal harmony, not just the relationship of the two people, but if that can be endemic to our society, and that's a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

It yes, it is. It's absolutely. Uh you've got you've given us a lot to chew on here, um, Bill, but I wanted to ask you before I let you go about Braver Angels. I went on their website yesterday and I took one of their one of their courses.

Braver Angels And Depolarization Tools

SPEAKER_00 31:00

It's a self-take course. That seems like an amazing organization. How did you get involved with them?

SPEAKER_01 31:09

I heard David Brooks uh give a uh speech in 2016 after Trump first got elected about the Polarization Society, and he mentioned there's some organizations out there. He mentioned Braver Angels. I got very excited. I learned about them, I became a moderator, uh, and then I took their content to Binghamton to beta test it. And uh, and and they have this great program where they uh one of the workshops is they teach the LAP skills, LAPP. So that when you talk to somebody you disagree with, you practice LAPP, you listen, you acknowledge, you pivot, and then you give your perspective. So uh, and uh I did uh some beta workshops on that, and they weren't, in my mind, developed specifically for uh for college students, number one. And number two, I thought it was too much to do in one workshop. Um so I I looked at their listening and acknowledging, and I said, how can we create better listeners? And then the Binghamton Project, I I I created the civil dialogue project, Binghamton University, which is these workshops we've been talking about, um, was born out of that. And we we use some braver angel techniques, we use some techniques from Jonathan Haidt. Uh his work, uh, he has the Constructive Dialogue Institute, uh, and he's a brilliant social scientist, and he just wrote the book, The Anxious Generation. He's a leading force for getting cell phones out of schools because of the negative impact on Gen Z. Um, so we take uh some of his work and then other social scientists, and then we and we uh we form them. But Braver Angels is a groundswell organization that has chapters in cities, counties, and states all over the country. They are a positively impacting society. If you just Google Braver Angels, you'll see they're in the press because of the the work they're doing, and it's mind-blowing, and it's wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Yeah, I'll include a I'll include a link to their website as well as yours in the show notes. Uh you've given us a lot to think about, Bill, and I appreciate it. And I hope that we can all go forward from here and and we don't always have to agree, but if we listen and give the other person the respect of our listening, I think uh I think we'll be a lot better off.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Mike, I think every conversation that we have with another person is an opportunity for a positive connection and a positive result. Every opportunity. Um, sure, that's idealistic, but I think um it can help frame uh you know virtually every interaction.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for the gift of your time, Bill. I do appreciate it. Um and I uh we we're gonna have to do this again to go into it a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Love to, Mike, and thank you for your amazing work. I'm familiar with your podcast. I think kindness, love, respect are all integrated uh created, uh, you know, uh integrated, and they are you know what humanity should be. So thank you for your work.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

You're very welcome. Take care. You too. Bye bye.