Words That Restore Dignity

One careless sentence can make someone shut down for years. One kind sentence can pull them back from the edge. That’s the tension we live in every day, and it’s why I wanted to bring on Shannon Roy, a veteran trial attorney and the founder of Roy Law Firm in Denver, Colorado. She spends her life inside emotionally charged, high-stakes conversations, where communication, tone, and trust are the difference between escalation and understanding.

We talk about how words can humanize or dehumanize, and why the very first moments of a conversation matter so much. Shannon shares a powerful story about a father working toward sobriety who hears his young son admit he’s afraid dad won’t be there when he comes down the slide. We also unpack a heartbreaking case involving a 10-year-old who unknowingly brought a backpack with a gun to school and faced expulsion, until a stranger’s anonymous generosity changed the family’s trajectory. These aren’t abstract “be nicer” ideas. They’re real examples of kindness and empathy shaping justice, safety, and outcomes.

From there, we get practical: how to assume positive intent, how to pause before responding, why texting causes so many misunderstandings, and how ego blocks the apology that could repair a relationship. If you care about better relationships, emotional regulation, conflict resolution, and building a kinder community, you’ll take away tools you can use today.

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“Intro music: ‘Human First’ by Mike Baker – YouTube Music: https://youtu.be/wRXqkYVarGA | Podcast: Still Here, Still Trying | Website: www.mikebakerhq.com 

Transcript

Welcome To Kindness Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is the Kindness Matters Podcast. A space for stories that inspire, challenge, and bring us a little closer together. If you've been looking for a reminder of the good in people, you're in the right place. Because kindness matters, and so do you. It's kind we are Hey, hello, and welcome everybody to the show. Thank you so much for listening in. You are listening to the Kindness Matters podcast, and I am your host, Mike Rathbun. Um we all have so many hours in the day, and the fact that you chose to take a portion of one of your hours and listen to this podcast means the world to me, and I I thank you so much for that. And you're very lucky to be here today because we have an awesome show for you. Um today um we're going to be joined by Shannon Roy, who is a veteran trial attorney and has spent her career working in some of the most emotionally charged and high-stakes conversations imaginable. As the founder of Roy Law Firm, based on Denver, Colorado, Shannon understands firsthand how words can either escalate conflict or build trust or dehumanize or restore dignity. And in this conversation, we're going to explore the powerful connection between kindness and communications and how the way we speak to each other and about one another shapes our communities, our relationships, and even our sense of humanity. Welcome to the show, Shannon. So nice to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Mike, it's a pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Oh, and this is really this is such an important conversation, really, because we see a lot of people talking poorly about our fellow human beings, don't we? And I you've been seeing that for a long time in your business.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Absolutely. And I mean, I think you really just hit it on the head in your introduction. Um, your kind words or your harsh words, they really life can go one of two ways. Conversations can go one of two ways. And the words you choose to lead with, um, the other person then is already on defense or they're ready to open up just based on a simple word, a simple greeting. Um, they words really are so important. They are the core of human interaction.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Yeah, for sure.

Why She Chose Criminal Defense

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Um, and and talk to me about how did let's go back a minute. Let's go back to how did you get into criminal defense law? I mean, I always think of law as like, it's kind of like being a doctor, right? There's so many different specialties you can go into. Why choose that one?

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Well, I knew I wanted to be a trial attorney. I'm gonna age myself for the listeners out there. Um, when I was a kid, I was watching the OJ trial. And I was like, I don't know what they're doing, but I know I have to do this. And it was so fascinating. And you want to talk about hearing words and and just your presence being so impactful. So I went to law school. Um, I knew at an early age that that was that was gonna be my path. And then I really started to explore the different areas of law and I interned at a bunch of different places. But one thing about me is I just love people. And I love hearing where people come from, uh, people's backgrounds. And when I interned somewhere in criminal defense, I learned, you know, everybody comes from somewhere. Everybody has a story. And there are very rare occasions that someone just wakes up one day and just says, I'm gonna go do these terrible things. They come from, you know, really terrible backgrounds, or there was just this one horrible instance that is not reflective of who they are. And so when I learned that you could use your words to tell someone's story to either change their trajectory, maybe they are choosing to not live how they should be living. Maybe your conversation with them, I always say we're all one non-judgmental conversation, one show of empathy away from an entirely different life, right? And so absolutely. And so really being able to sit and listen to people and help them either change the life that they're living that they shouldn't be living, or explain how this was just this one off situation that's not reflective of the person that they are, just became a passion for me. And that's I've dedicated the last 15 years of my life just listening to people, humanizing people, and being people's voice. So when I tell you that words matter, I mean it with every fiber of my being. It's it's just so yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

And you're so passionate about it.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Oh, I mean, you have to be. There's a saying, the this anyone that's played sports, right? You're about to go tennis, basketball, soccer, whatever it is, you get those butterflies in your stomach. It's the same for especially a trial attorney. Right before trial, I got that same feeling from sports. And they say when you lose that, you're supposed to hang up. Uh hang up your shingle, is what they say in the law. Hang up your shingle because you're not supposed to do this anymore, right? Because if you're not passionate about what you're doing, it's like cooking. You can tell if somebody rushed through something and maybe forgot an ingredient or two, didn't bake it long enough. You can actually taste when something's rushed. Imagine doing that to someone's life, right? And so you have to be passionate about it, you have to be meticulous with it, and you have to put your all in every single case because this really is someone's life.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Yeah.

When Words Change A Life

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Well, so now can you share maybe some examples about that from your your career, um, where somebody words helped someone take accountability or or changed direction? Or maybe um yeah. Do you have any cr any stories like that?

SPEAKER_00 6:32

I do. I have two that really I think resonate with um the topic that we're speaking of. One where I think words really change the trajectory for someone, and then one where actions of of kindness. I'll say the words first. I I use this example all the time. Um, I had a client who came from a family who was in and out of prison, both parents, both drug users. So he started using drugs when he was 13 years old. Um, him and his partner had two children, a daughter and a little boy. And the wife passed away from health issues. So it was just the just the young man, and he just couldn't clean up his act. So he was in and out of jail and had him on a case, and his mom was watching his kids. And we sat down, had some really hard conversations. We got him into treatment programs. Um, we got him resources, we got him things that would help change the underlying issue, which was causing all of the issues, right? And so he his mom said, You cannot see these children until you're you're sober, as she should say that. So he puts in the hard work, it's clean, he takes his kids to the park. His daughter's favorite thing is the swings, and his son's favorite thing is the slides. And he walks his uh kids to the park, daughter runs off to the swing, and the son will not let go of his hand. And he's like, Buddy, like, why don't you want to go on the slide? You love that. And he said, Because I think that by the time I get down to the bottom, you might not be here. So I'm not gonna let you go. And those words of love, it was what he needed to hear. So he was already on that path to sobriety. But hearing that, sometimes all we need are those words of affirmation, those words of love instead of judgment, right? Because everybody could judge him for not getting his act together sooner. But his hearing his son say, I just want to stay right here with you, dad, so that I don't have to worry about you not being here anymore. It's what he needed. And and he's been sober for a very long time now. And he and he turned it around. So I love that, right? Because sometimes you need to hear it from a child and sometimes you need to hear it from an adult.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

And so Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

It's beautiful. No.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

It it is, it's absolutely beautiful. Um I I love that too, because and kids don't care, right? They're just they're oftentimes they're unfiltered. But in that particular case, totally honest. Yes, yes. Um, and you know what? That probably was a very honest thing for that young man to say, is that little boy.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Yes. Um and a kindness story that I think that you'll absolutely love. I had I had a little uh little boy who's walking to school with his brother. He was 10 years old, and they found this backpack along the way, and it was like a really cool backpack. So they picked it up. It was this in a bush. So they picked it up, they carried it to school, and then when they got to school there, looking in it. Turns out some criminal had thrown it out in a police chase, and there was a gun in the backpack. So all of a sudden, this 10-year-old is looked at that he brought this gun to school. So police come, everybody come, and they um they kick him out of school. They expel him. I get his case taken care of, but they expel him. He, by the school standards, he had to be expelled from school for one year. So the only option this kid had was to go to a paid private school, which his family didn't have the money for, or he had to go to an alternative school with like bad kids. And he's this little tiny, the cutest little thing you've ever seen, right? When when the police initially handcuffed him, he kept falling off and he would pick him up and say, Do you need to put these back on me? They fell off again. And he was just so cute. So I am telling my my dry cleaner, she loves like the law. So she's always asking, like, what's the juicy case that you have? I am sharing this story with her, and I'm just saying, it's it's just really got me because this kid does not need to be at this school with kids that are intentionally making bad decisions, right? He's a good kid. His parents just can't afford. She says, give me his name. Here, have him pick any private school that he wants to go to. I'm paying his full tuition for a whole year. And she said, I don't want him to know where it's coming from. I want it to be anonymous, but I want him to go to a school where he's gonna thrive and learn and be safe. Paid for his entire school for an entire year until he could go back to school. All just out of the goodness of her heart, kindness. She, that life, that family's life, all out of just kindness. It gives me goosebumps. I have goosebumps telling me the story, and every time I tell it, because it it just restores your faith in humanity and it shows that there are phenomenal people out there.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

And I mean, I just find it heartbreaking that a 10-year-old would need a criminal defense attorney.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

But it's I mean I know, I know.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Oh man. It happens. Yeah, that's just so and you talked a minute ago about judging people.

Why We Judge So Fast

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Why do you think people are so quick to I mean, it's almost like it's our default, right? Judgment or blame or or harshness. Why do you think we do that?

SPEAKER_00 12:23

You know, I think that we see the world not as it is, but as we are. And so I think that what we are quick to pick at people for, what we're quick to judge them, is something that we're struggling with ourselves. And so, yeah, I I I truly I believe it. I see it all the time. So I I think that when people um, you know, harp on people's weight, it's because they're insecure with how they look. If they harp on people's looks, it's the same thing. If they say, like, oh, what a, you know, what a stupid opinion, it's probably because it's something that they never thought of before. And maybe they they don't feel, you know, adequate with with their position on on the topic or something like that. But I truly do think that whenever you get a judgmental comment out of somebody or just an unkind comment, I think it's just the turmoil that's that's inside them just coming out, projecting on onto somebody else. I I don't think it has anything to do with other people. I I think it has everything to do with themselves.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah, and and we see it so often these days, right? Unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

We do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Almost always online, but occasionally we'll see it in in real life too. IRL.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Absolutely.

Tone That Calms Or Escalates

SPEAKER_01 13:46

We talked kind of in in our um in our pre-recording thing. And and you brought something up and about um language is able to regulate or deregulate emotions. Dude did I not remember that right?

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Absolutely. Can you talk to me about that? Because I found that fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Yeah. You know, when I kind of touched on it in the very beginning. When you first meet somebody, the tone that you use, the expressions that you use, even the com uh comments that you use are going to set the tone of how they are. If I sit down with somebody in my very first meeting with them and I say, Why would you do something so stupid? Like, oh, what a stupid idea. Like, why did you do this? All of a sudden now they're like, oh my God, like she thinks I'm so dumb. Now they're defending themselves. And now we're gonna have the most ineffective, unproductive conversation in the whole world. They won't trust me, and I'm not gonna get anywhere with them. If you sit down and you just, again, we're all one non-judgmental, one act or comment of kindness away from a different outcome in life. If you sit down with them and you just say, you know, you don't even dive right into their issues. Just tell me a little bit about yourself, Mike. Like, what do you do? Where do you come from? Like, um, and you just start with kindness and you just start with um a simple conversation that lets them know I'm here to just to talk. I'm not here to judge, I'm not here to look down on you. Um, I'm just here to talk and get to know you. Then all of a sudden they they are at ease, they're at peace. They're they're not feeling that fight or flight, they're not feeling that I have to defend why I did this. Like if she only understood the circumstances that day, we'll get there. And you're gonna be actually way more willing to talk to me about it because I started the conversation in a in a total non-judgmental, totally easygoing way. So it's it's the same as, you know, running into anyone out in public, right? If somebody bumps into you, you have one of two options. Oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't, you know, you can say sorry, like maybe it was you, maybe you were actually walking a little too, or you could say, hey, buddy, watch where you're going. You're going to dictate the outcome of exactly how that probably unintentional act goes, right? You both apologize. Maybe you start up a conversation, maybe it's somebody that you're gonna have a lot in common with, and all of a sudden you've made a lifelong friend from bumping into someone unintentionally on the sidewalk, or you bump into the wrong person, you shout at them, shit, they shot at you, you might just get popped in the nose. Who knows? So it really your reaction to something. I I saw someone online the other day that said you should always, you should train your brain to think that everybody had a great intention for what they did. And if you go, isn't that such a good one? I was like, I loved it. If you tell yourself, man, they were trying, they were walking a little fast and they bumped into me, but they were going to surprise someone and they were gonna go try to decorate their room before they got home. And so they were gonna try. If you assume that everything had a positive intention behind it, you would not ever take offense, you would not be mad, you would not judge, you would, you would just let it go. And I loved it. What a great way. The world would be a different place if everybody thought like that.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Yes, yes, but it does seem hard. First of all, we do that. Every single one of us does that, I think, to some extent or another. We just, you know, hey, jerk, slow down, or whatever the case is, you just you jump immediately to that anger or that judgment, or look at this clown, he can't drive, whatever the case might be. But yes, if we all just I don't know how to do it, chant it like a monk or something, but just assume that everyone and to your to your comment about running into people, here in Minnesota, we just go, Oop, just gonna slip by in here.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

I might I might have to try it.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

Everybody'll think you're from the Midwest. Yeah, and and and that's really, really important too, because when you speak to people um to their humanity and not to their you know, their worst moment, yes, every time, I think, right? You're gonna get you're gonna get a much better conversation. And that's so important for your work, your line of work, but I I think just in everyday life, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Everyday life. We all, if we looked at our 24 hours every single day, there's not a person living that every 24 hours they got every minute of it right, that they said exactly what they should have said, they acted exactly how they should have acted, and that they put their best foot forward, right? And so could you imagine if you think back in your life and the worst, maybe your worst moment that you're least proud of, if that was up on a projection screen and that's all anybody gotta see about you, and they said, Oh, that's who Mike is, you would be like, Oh my God, no, Mike is Mike is married, and Mike has done so many phenomenal things and he's owned businesses and he's he loves cats and he loves animals and he loves flowers and he loves nature and he's all of these things. But everyone's like, no, that that one moment right there, that's you. And I think that we do. We judge people like that every day, whether it's a someone in the criminal uh justice system, whether it's someone in a grocery store that is in the express lane, but they have 25 things instead of the 10, and we want to go up in arms, but little do we know that their kid is sick at home and that's the stuff that they needed, and they were just trying to rush, and that's the shortest line. So they just made a choice. Again, if we always think with the positive intentions that people are acting with positive intentions, I think that we would be so much better off because if we all had to be judged by a a poor moment, we would all look completely different than who we really are.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Yeah, for sure.

Giving Grace At Home

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Um, so talk to me about a little bit. Let's take this concept of of just um assuming that everybody's trying to do their best. How do we apply that uh in everyday life? Uh, maybe for example, like family conversations. How can we do that?

SPEAKER_00 21:07

You know, I think that again, it's a part of a personal reflection in yourself, right? So we all know times like when you're tired and your kid wants to play the same game for the tenth time, and you really got to do this and you need to make dinner. And so you could find yourself being snappy, or you know, you just have to think how you would want someone to give you a little bit of grace in things is how you see. So when my sister calls me and it seems like she doesn't care at all what I'm saying, and she's just nagging and she's frustrated with everything, think like, oh, I I've been there. Like my day, if she'd asked, she'd know that I've had a whopper doozy day as well. But I get it, she must have one too. So where I need a little bit of grace from people, I'm gonna give it to her. So I think if we just We are the I think it's the Gandhi quote, be the change that you want to see in the world. Like if you can't find kindness, if you can't find a smile, if you can't find just love out in the world, just be it. I think that you, you know, you don't have to wait for kindness to find you to reciprocate it. I think you spread kindness. I think you give kindness. And if we all gave it without expecting, I think sometimes people give compliments, waiting for you to, oh Mike, did you lose some weight? And then you sit there waiting to be waiting for you to say, I don't know, Shannon, but you're looking pretty skinny yourself. And it doesn't come. And now I'm upset. I wanted Mike to tell me that I I I look like I lost a pound or two. Like, no, you don't have to say something loving, say something kind in hopes to get it back. Just give it. Give it, just give it in abundance. And I'm telling you, if you give it, it is gonna come your way tenfold. You know, my husband and I, we travel the world. We love traveling, we love taking the kids. And what we say, you don't have to speak the same language because a kindness, a smile, a hug, we all speak the same language. When you're speaking love and you're speaking kindness, you're speaking the same language. And I can't tell you how many different countries we've been to. And a smile, you know, our kids giggling and laughing with them, we're we're all connected and it's so beautiful. So you don't have to even speak the same language, let alone wait for a reciprocated kind word, right? You just give it and and if anything, it makes you feel whole. It fills you up. And and if the only person that you changed in the day with your acts of kindness and your words of kindness is is yourself, then you've won.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Yes. Absolutely. And I I I am s yes. I love that. I my mind is going in about a million different directions right now. Uh you had mentioned about the child asking to play that game one more time. Yes. Reminded me of a a road trip years and years ago. Um, I took a road trip with my son and we were driving from Minneapolis to Billings, Montana. Um, and it was on I-94, so we went through North Dakota, and at the time I had one of those like VCRs that you could put in your car, you know, you plug it in in your car and the kid can watch it. If I had to watch or listen to, I wasn't watching, I was listening to it. Um by the dozen one more time. I love Steve Martin.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

But by the time we got to Billings, I was this close.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

Yes.

unknown 24:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

I have shows that play on the the screens there. I've never actually seen the shows, but I know every word, every song. I I could be in the movie. Like I could if they did a live like reenactment, I could actually be in it because I know all of it, and I've never physically watched one second. I've just heard it seven million times.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

That one, and then we went from Billings to Denver, where my mom lived, and then back home up here to Minneapolis. And it was like that one and um spy kids.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Oh shiitake mushrooms. That was a great line.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

I love

The Power Of A Pause

SPEAKER_02 25:40

it.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

It is um okay, so before uh talk to me about how how important is it for us when we're having these conversations to pause before responding.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

You know, it's crazy. It it's so important. So in criminal uh well, in any criminal trial, you know, the witness takes the stand. And if you're a witness for the other side, that means the other side is gonna try to beat you up, right? And they're gonna try to ask all these questions and come and and do all this stuff. So I always prepare all my witnesses. You are not allowed to answer within the first five seconds after the question is asked because you need to process it, right? Sometimes you hear half the question and you respond. And that's why you have to pause, you have to digest and then respond, right? Because that's why I even think half the time communication is lost over text message because there's no tone, there's no, you know, it's how something comes out writing, it might not be how it would come out spoken. And so um, I think that people, I think there's a lot of fights that start unintentionally over like text messages because people are misunderstood or misinterpreted. So, and even when you're talking, if you're already in a defensive state, and again, that's why our tone and how we how we start things and and how we respond is so important. If I've put you in a defensive state, you are no longer listening to me. You're anticipating your response. And so you hear a portion of the question and you're already responding to what you think I said or what I you think I asked, and not what I actually asked. And I think that happens in real life all the time. And so people are just so worked up and they're so, I have to tell my point and my story. Well, yeah, but it's lost because even sometimes when you say something so obnoxious and so just harsh, what you're saying is lost on the listener. Yes, it really is.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Yeah.

The Long Shadow Of Verbal Harm

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Um so let's talk just for a second about the long-term impact of verbal harm. Because I think you've seen that in in your business as well, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Yes. I think you know, I I'll never take away from physical harm because physical harm can stay with you forever. But you know, a we don't see the the verbal harm that's done. It's all internal and it's just collected and it's collected and it's collected. And we have no idea that the harm that we're doing to people by the words, and it could be so unintentional. I heard a story once um this woman was saying, I used to love to sing as a kid. I sang all the time. And one day my mom, who she found out later was just having a really, really rough day, like just got fired from her job, but she came home and the girl was singing, and her mom was like, Shut up, you're a terrible singer, you're singing too loud. Girl never sang again. And then she was like scared to even talk loud. And she grew up with this insecurity of, oh, my voice is annoying, my voice is too loud. And she just shrunk herself one comment, one comment, but it came from the person that she valued the most, right? And so um, I just think that, you know, at you know, how we treat people at work, how we treat our partner, uh, again, just because you're having a bad day to tell your partner, like, this food is terrible. Like, did what did you do different? Or like, did you do something different with your hair? Again, because you're mad you're gonna word it in a way that you're taking out on someone it has nothing to do with, you have no idea what it does to them, right? And in the same token on a positive side, I can't tell you how many clients call me years, years, years down the road and they say, you know, Shannon, there was something that you said to me in this meeting, or there's something that you did here, or you just listened. You were the first person who ever listened and didn't tell me that I was a mess up and that I threw my life away and that there was no saving me. You were the first person that made me think I could actually change, I could get sober, I could do better. And you're just like, man. So when you hear that your words can literally be the one reason that someone chooses that today is the day I'm actually gonna change, man, it makes you just wanna to just spread kindness and hope. And and it's just it's crazy. I mean, you hear stories all the time, like someone was like, I was gonna go jump off the bridge or I was gonna go kill myself. And then I met this guy and he just he didn't know it, but he started a conversation with me on the subway train down there, and he was so kind and he listened to it and made me change my mind. And you're like, Man, that guy had no idea. He had no agenda, he was just kind, and he was just having a conversation with you and it changed that person's entire life. It saved that person's life, right? So it's so powerful. If the world just lead with kindness, we would live in such a different world.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

We would, but we're all human, right? And we make mistakes every single day. And um but to the extent we we have control over ourselves and we have control over the the words that we speak. Um if you just take a few seconds to to think about what you're saying before you say them, uh we could probably change a lot more world.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

And we're not perfect, right? But I think that you realize maybe I shouldn't have said that. That's where we also need to put ego aside, right? There can't be a kind world led with ego. So if you just realize, like, man, you know what? I'm gonna call them back. Because I don't like how that ended, and I don't like the last thing I said, so I'm gonna call them back. Because what if that's the last conversation I ever have with them? Those are not gonna be my last words, right? And so you you're not always gonna get it right, but if you always have the right intention, then you can make up for it and you can always make a different choice.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Yeah, put that pride aside and go, you know what, I don't like what I said there. I'm sorry, you know, apologize, right? Absolutely. And that's the recipe for a better, kinder world, I think.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

It is, Mike.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

It is Shannon Roy, thank you so much for being here today. I really, really appreciate it. Um, your words are perfect, and I think everybody needs to hear them. And uh I I thanks for being here. Thanks for what you put out into the world.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Thanks so much for having me, Mike. It was a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

It's kind we are human.

How To Support The Show

SPEAKER_01 32:52

This episode is made possible by the generous support of people like Sue Jackson, Dave Lewis, and John Kepler. I appreciate you so much for tuning into this episode of the Kindness Matters podcast with my guest, An Roy. If you found value in this episode, it would mean the world to me. If you shared it with a friend or family member, or a co-worker, or maybe even took a moment to leave a comment or a review. It's one of the best ways to help others discover this show. If you would like to support the show like Stu, John, and Dave, we have both two and one-time support options available on BuyMec Coffee as well as the merchant shop. So find both the links for those, waiting for you, and the show notes. And if supporting financially isn't possible right now, that's completely okay. The most meaningful way you can support the show is by doing one small act of random kindness each day. It truly does make a difference. We will be back again next week with a brand new episode. But until then, remember, kindness matters, and so do you.