Storytelling That Turns Small Talk Into Trust

Silence can feel like a conversation killer, but what if it’s the fastest path to trust? We sit down with John Nepper, a speaker, educator, and leadership trainer with 35+ years of experience, to unpack a practical approach to kindness and leadership that works in real workplaces, not just on posters.

We talk about why storytelling in leadership matters, how small talk becomes meaningful when you’re intentional, and what John calls the Story Formula for Extraordinary Retention. The big idea is deceptively simple: everyone’s story matters. When leaders learn to listen without hijacking the moment, they build psychological safety, reduce the “us versus them” vibe, and keep great people from walking out the door because they don’t feel heard.

John also challenges the habits that derail difficult conversations: “I don’t know what to say,” “It’s not my job,” and the urge to fix. We get concrete about the power of waiting, how silence gives people room to choose their words, and why trust grows when we make the conversation about the other person. From quick three-minute check-ins to rebuilding broken trust, this is empathy at work with clear next steps.

We close with John’s “Be Someone For Someone” initiative, a movement-level mindset that starts with one decision each morning: show up for someone on purpose. If this sparked something in you, subscribe, share the show with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find this kindness-first leadership work.

You can support the show in a few different ways—by grabbing something from our merch store, picking up a copy of my book, or joining us on Buy Me a Coffee. Every bit of support helps keep the podcast going and also helps us give back to nonprofits doing good in the world.

“Intro music: ‘Human First’ by Mike Baker – YouTube Music: https://youtu.be/wRXqkYVarGA | Podcast: Still Here, Still Trying | Website: www.mikebakerhq.com 

Transcript

Welcome And Kindness Mission

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Welcome to the kindness matters podcast. Show that celebrate speaker powerful truth. That kindness can change the world. Every week I aim to china light up. People and organizations making a positive difference to their communities. Proving that compassion, empathy, and connection to five. This podcast is about 45 stories low. It's about free interacts. If the message of this show resonates with you, please share it with your friends and family. Faith Share helps spread the light a little further. Because when it comes to kindness, the ripple effect is limitless. Hey, hello, and welcome everybody to the kindness matters podcast. I am your host, Mike Rathbun. Um, just uh thank you for for showing up today for taking an interest in kindness, of course, but also this podcast. Um it it means a lot to me because we all have so many hours in the day, right? And the fact that that you chose a half of one of those hours to listen in to this podcast means the world to me. And and I appreciate it and I thank you. If there's anything you hear in this podcast that um that strikes you or sticks with you, feel free to share it with your friends, family, strangers on the street, whatever the case may be. Uh, I have a fantastic show today for you. My guest today is John Nipper. He is a speaker, educator, and leadership trainer with more than 35 years of experience helping people build stronger human connections. He was honored as the Kenosha Unified School's Teacher of the Year and is the creator of the Story Formula for Extraordinary Retention, a framework that helps build leaders, build trust, and uh listen more deeply and create workplaces where people feel valued and heard. His work centers on a simple but powerful idea. Everyone's story matters. Today we'll be talking about kindness and leadership and his new be someone for someone initiative, which encourages each of us to show up intentionally in the lives of others. John, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Good morning, Mike. Thank you for having me.

Teaching Music Through Relationship

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Yeah, it's as we both prepare for nasty weather, right? That's right. Get this out of the way. Um You were and when you were teaching, um you you were teaching music, is that correct? Yes as a band director. Right. How did that prepare you to understand the rhythm of a human conversation?

SPEAKER_00 4:05

First of all, I love that phrase, rhythm of a conversation. Here's the thing. When I was teaching, I was teaching music, I was teaching band, but I often was frustrated with seeing other people either work with my kids or others, where it was totally about the music and not about the relationship of the conductor to the kids who were making the music. So for me, it was always, can I create relationships and connections with my musicians in such a way that helps us make music better together? And that really is where that all came from. Like if they didn't trust me to have their best interest, how would they perform to the level that we we were aspiring to?

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Right, for sure. Because yeah, I mean it's hard enough to keep kids engaged, right? Much less but it's a lot easier when when you have a relationship with them.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Yes, it is much easier.

Story Formula For Real Connection

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Yeah, um okay now to ask you about something else. Um I'm seeing a lot in my social media feeds, and I've been out of the corporate world for a long time. Um, so I'm not necessarily in tune with that, but I I'm seeing a lot LinkedIn and and what have you about stories and storytelling and that sort of thing? Um, Simon Simek, I think, talks a lot about it, and uh Neil Ford, um, I love his content. How does the story formula move a conversation from simple small talk to a deep, meaningful connection? And why is that story so important in leadership?

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Well, I think there's a great question. You know, all of our conversations I think have to start with small talk. Sometimes that gets a bum rap. It's like, well, I don't do small talk, I don't like small talk. And I'm thinking if you don't do small talk, how are you going to have a chance to move it to a deeper level? Uh, because that's where it starts. But if people are intentional about taking it beyond that, if they're not, it's going to be a a conversation in the hall by the printer on a Zoom meeting that only lasts a minute because there's not an intention to move it into something deeper. But the the key thing, I think, is can we really pay attention, listen, and ask questions that are going to invite more conversation? Uh and that's really one of the huge pieces of the story formula. It's the story formula for extraordinary retention, but it's also the story formula for outstanding extraordinary relationships. And so many times when I was working with other teachers, it was a conversation that was three minutes or less, but I learned so much in that three minutes because I was really paying attention, I was listening, and I would ask questions that would cause people to think, to share an idea, share something that was going on with their kids that took the conversation down a level that below the surface. And it's it's something that I think people feel like it's really difficult. And I've experienced a lot in my conversation with people, they don't necessarily understand or know how or feel it's important to do that. Um, and I'm the exact opposite. It's like I want to do the small talk to get us to talking about something that matters, not to me per se, but to you. Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

For sure. And it it seems kind of like a no-brainer, right? Uh, to be able to tell those stories, to build those relationships. But again, I'm just seeing it lately, maybe within the last year or two, I think. Is it a new concept in leadership?

SPEAKER_00 8:13

I think the leaders who are successful have known that since the beginning of time. I think that there's more attention to it because it's because they're not holding on to their good people. You know, when people feel like they're valued for what they do, they don't leave. There's a story I that I know personally of someone who worked at Microsoft was having a difficulty with someone that she was working with, went to the leadership and it was she found that they were listening, that they were concerned, that they really took in what she was saying, and they followed up and made a difference such that she was willing to stay because she felt like they really believed her. So her trust level went up because they paid attention. And you know, they're they're calling it heart-centered leadership. I think that's always been there. I do think there's more focus on it, but I do think there's a real need for leaders to understand how to do that. And I don't think it's that hard, except I think it takes practice.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Oh, sure. Yeah, I I I was gonna say, can that even be taught? But you you're doing it, right?

unknown 9:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Yeah, I that's the thing too. One of your other questions further down, I noticed was about empathy. Can it be taught or is it just something we have? Um I uh I celebrate my mom who taught me that. You know, she was a teacher, but I learned from her. So can it be taught? I know it can be taught. And I again, I don't I think it's more about being open to it and being intentional about it instead of expecting it to happen naturally. Because yes, there's a percentage of people who have that natural empathy, but I very strongly believe that we can learn that.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Yeah. My mom drilled that into me when I was a kid. Like, I got Bambi quotes a lot. I'm like, Humper, you know, Mama always says, if you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Ah, the wisdom of the Bambi movie.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

You know, yeah. It was the time period that I grew up in, I guess. Um I don't know that Bambi was new. I don't even know when that came out. Doesn't matter. Um but yeah, I mean I I think drilling it in sounds kind of like a negative connotation, but it's not a bad thing if you can teach kids. Do you do you think they carry the well, you're a good example of that. They carry it with them into adulthood, right? Empathy?

SPEAKER_00 11:07

I absolutely think they do. You know, and I look to my own daughters as well. That was something that we talked about as parents with them, and I see them putting that into practice so often with the people that they relate to. One of my daughters works at a public library in in town here, and she's always talking about people who come up to her with questions, concerns. And I know, not just from hearing her talk about it, but I know she was she is there being that person for them in the moment. And I know they appreciate it because they come back and tell her. That's that's the beautiful thing about it. When people come back and say, Man, you made my day. Um and they often don't, because we don't we don't always get the chance to know. Like when I was teaching, I I didn't always get the chance to know that I had made a difference somehow or kick made a connection until sometimes they come back. Uh, there's kind of a fun story. My mom had a tree trimming party every year, and I got a phone call. I didn't live there anymore, but a former student of mine had that phone number as my contact number. I hadn't seen him for 15 years. And he called up just to say, Man, I just wanted to tell you how much difference you made in my life. You know, that that was golden and totally unexpected, but some evidence that there was impact there.

Empathy And Difficult Conversations

SPEAKER_01 12:31

Yeah. I love when that happens, right? And and it doesn't happen all the time. It's not an everyday thing, but when it does, boy, just kind of. Yeah. Um so, and we talked about a little bit about difficult conversations, right? Um what's the number one reason you found that people avoid conversations that matter? And how can we be brave enough to push past that fear? Because it it can be hard to have a difficult conversation, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:15

It can. And I there's several reasons. I don't know if I can pinpoint one, but first of all, I think people might feel it's not their business. Maybe they don't have time. There's there's often a fear of I don't know what to say. Um and it can be risky to step into a conversation where you don't, especially if it's a difficult conversation. But here's the thing too, like if people are, like if I find myself wondering, or or other people do, what's going on with this person, and they hesitate to step into that conversation, um, it it could be the conversation, like I say, that makes their day, but it could also be that conversation that saves their life. We don't know that. But that fear of I don't know what to say, I don't have the time, the one thing that people often say too is it's not my job. And this one is a conversation killer, is I don't care. That's a whole different kind of conversation. Uh, but even the one that says it's not my job, uh, if you're a leader in an organization and you want to keep your best people, it really is your job.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Yeah, for sure. And a lot of times during conversations like that, you're going to um you're gonna run into silence, right? Um how can we be better at being fully present when someone is is sharing something vulnerable and when you're having that difficult conversation and and the silence can kind of kill that conversation, right? So, how can we be better at being present?

SPEAKER_00 14:58

That's a great question. And I think the silence can enhance that conversation. Especially, so first of all, like if I'm listening to somebody, what I I talked about is how do I invite somebody into my listening? Not that I'm the one talking, I'm the one listening. And the tendency is for people to want to jump in and say, I know exactly how you feel. I have a story that's just like yours. And no, we don't. We have we don't know. And is oftentimes people feel the need to fill it with their story, but that puts the that puts the light back on me instead of my voice being heard the least amount of time in the conversation, which I think is critical. Um, so that silence, uh I I was with a woman we were dating, I asked her a question, she didn't answer right away. And I something said, just wait. And so really I waited for what seemed like minutes. And I thought either she had fallen asleep or she forgot the question. Uh, she answered me. And she it was pivotal in our in our relationship because I understood that I needed to wait for her to because it allows people to figure out what they want to say, uh, formulate their opinions, their ideas, it also uh what they're feeling, but it also gives them a chance to decide how much they trust you. And I think that's the critical piece right there.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Okay. So the silence is not a conversation killer. You just have to wait for it because it may be something important.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

Yes, I think so. And so as a teacher, I would ask a question to my students, and if they didn't answer in a second or two, I was always on to the next kid. So someone would raise their hand, the person over here didn't answer right away, and I would go over to the next student. Well, that took any opportunity for that other student to formulate their answer. And so I had to really learn to wait and let that question sit there. It does cause some discomfort because people look away, they don't want to make eye contact, they don't, please don't call on me. But letting that question sit gave them the chance to hear their own voice, which I think is extremely important. Um and uh it's that that idea too that um, you know, like if you sing the Jeopardy theme, it's half of the theme is 15 seconds. So I'll have I'll have audiences kind of sing it in their head, and it feels like it's an hour, or it feels like it's a eternity.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

It's a really long song in my head.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Yeah, and so I'll say, so how when's the last time you waited 15 seconds for someone to answer? And most people can't re recall the time. Because we get uncomfortable in that silence.

Quick Trust-Building In Big Teams

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Yeah, yeah, we do. But I think if you wait for it like everything else in the world, right? If you wait for it, exactly the stuff will come. That's right. Yeah. Um and you had talked about okay, you mentioned that empathy in the workplace has reached critical mass. And and oh, that was what you were talking about earlier. I should stop listening. I should stop reading my question. Oh, you said is empathy something that can be taught? Yes. We've answered, asked and answered.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Yeah. Well, and I think too, the thing about empathy from leader to employee or uh from colleague to colleague, again, it it extends trust. You know, and so maybe that beginning level trust is just a starting point, but every time there's that chance to show empathy and come back to a conversation and say, hey, you know, you tell me your son's got the flu, how's he doing? That level of trust keeps going up. And I I think that's I think that's crucial. And you know, and that's the hard thing too. I mean, if you're a leader in an organization where you have 250 people, that's a lot. How do you touch with those 250 people or 2,500 or 10,000? Well, you can't. But you know, I I went to Michigan State for college and there's 45,000 people there. Uh in the music department, there were 900. In the band department, there are 250, which I was in. In the trombone department, there were 16. Well, what if as a leader you connected with someone for a three-minute conversation or less? 16 people. That's only four, that's like less than 50 minutes of your time over the course of the week. And does that help create those connections? It absolutely does. The problem is I most people don't find that time. A lot of people don't. I don't know that I could say most, a lot of people don't.

Rebuilding Trust With Better Listening

SPEAKER_01 20:10

But definitely a lot easier to connect with 16 than 10,000, right? Yes. And you had mentioned something in I leadership organizations. We were talking about that, but and again, it's been a long time since I have been in the corporate world. Um, but one of the things that always bugged me as a worker was the us versus them mentality between leadership and staff. It was yeah, you know, it was always such a a scary thing to go into the C-suite, right? Um for whatever reason. Um what when you have that kind of mentality and when you want to to fix that, the trust that may have been broken there, what's the what's the the quickest way that a leader can rebuild that that trust in that kind of situation?

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Yeah, we've mentioned that already. I think the quickest way is for a leader to, like I said before, invite people into his listening and not say anything. You know, or s or ask questions that are other person questions rather than getting my point across. Um I I did a presentation uh uh about two weeks ago, and someone talked to me afterwards saying, Well, I find when I if they aren't getting my point, that I I say, you know, I'm not making myself clear. And I said to him, that's not the whole point of this program or this idea. The idea is that you Put the question out there to them and let them talk. And really find out. So you know, so if there's a a broken trust between a a leader and an employee, I want to know what caused it. I want to find out what I can do to you know, if it's a circumstance that really I want to repair that relationship, it's not about what I think. It's about what they think, whether or what they need. Uh and sometimes it's just that they need to be heard. Like I came to you with this issue and you totally blew me away. You you did you didn't listen to, you blew me off. So can I go back and say, listen, I think there's something here. I wasn't listening to you. Tell me what you need. Tell me what's important to you. How can I make this better?

SPEAKER_01 22:53

We've had uh, and you mentioned it a couple times during the conversation, but you've got a mantra and it's not about me. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Because I think that's a fascinating and it's a very it's a very humble way to go about it. But I think it's also crucial to what we're talking about here.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

I think it is too. It's it's again being able to set aside my agenda. You know, like we're in conversation, someone's saying something, it's like, ooh, but they need to know my point. Yeah. No, they don't. So again, if I can remember, it's not about me. You know, in this idea that we're connecting, we're being there for somebody, we're being present, we're trying to build trust, it's not about me. And um, you know, that that urge to fix is so strong. You know, um, I am a recovering fixer. It got me into a lot of trouble. I'm still doing it.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

I'm not even recovering.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

It's it's that idea. Well, if you just did this, um that makes it about me. You know, like here's my idea. If you just took my idea, things would be so much better. But when I can come to that mantra and say, it's not about me, tell me what would make this better for you. Tell me how we can improve what we're doing. It totally I think it puts them in a space where they're gonna be willing to say things where otherwise, if it's about me, they're gonna sense that and they're just gonna clam up. They're gonna bury their head in the same, they're gonna say, uh, he's not gonna listen, she's not gonna listen, why should I bother? And that's that makes it even harder to establish trust down the road because they already have their defenses up.

Be Someone For Someone Movement

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Right, right. They've already probably made up their mind, their mind that you're uh closed-minded or un unwilling to bend or whatever the case may be. Um so okay. Talk to me about um be someone for someone. Because I think this is really fascinating. What was the light bulb moment that made you realize that this was the next step in in your mission?

SPEAKER_00 25:08

I I love that question because it's it wasn't a moment. Oh it kind of wasn't, kind of wasn't. First of all, it's like all of these things in my life have been funneling down, funneling down, funneling down to this point where I have I think I've always been about connection and how important it is. Um I I have a friend who's a cardiologist who uh he was a teaching doctor. He would tell his medical students, if you want to be a better doctor, a better nurse, a better health professional, you have to learn your patient's stories. And when he told me that, that was kind of the turning point. Like I said, oh, as a teacher, if I want to be a better teacher, I have to learn my student stories. If I want to be a better leader, I have to learn my employees' stories or my organization, what's going on. Because then again, it's not about me, it's about them. And I just thought that was brilliant. And it really was it that has been my rock. Like, that's why I think learning people's stories is so important. And and and I also think, Mike, it's not the stories that the big stories we learn about the bar mitzvah, the wedding, the anniversary, the retirement, the birth of a child. People talk about those. It's the stories that people are carrying with them on their shoulders every day into the workplace, into our schools, into our churches, all those places where they come carrying that story from last night at the dinner table, or this morning on the way to dropping the kids off to school. And when we can notice that something that they're carrying something, stepping into that conversation, even though you don't know what to say, or you don't think it's your business, or you don't have time, um, I think it allows them to unburden even for even for a short amount of time to kind of take that off and say, ooh, I don't have to carry that. And I also think, too, you know, um, that's when we see people channel with challenges and struggles and difficulties, that's really important to step in and be someone for someone. And what about the times when someone is dying to tell you about the success they had, the thing they want to celebrate, the wonderful news that they just got, but they feel like nobody's gonna listen to them. So it it it it's not just about the challenges, it's about the good things too, how we can step in, be someone for someone in a way that's going to unburden them or feel like someone shared their interest and really took an interest in them.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Oh yeah, for sure. So how is this how is this manifesting for you, the be someone for someone? Is it is it an initiative? Is it within your company?

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Is it uh because I spend so much time in education, I think that's a place that I know that students are carrying things. I know that it's far safer for them to say I'm fine than to take a risk and share. Because it is a risk, because they don't know how that's going to be received. It could be scary, it's like people are not gonna listen to me. So one of the places that I am speaking now is with students, just to let them know, you know, that whole idea that uh I saw a statistic that said one in four students is not getting their emotional needs met. I think it's like four in four students. At some time or another, most of us are not. Like I say, for the for that very reason that it's easier to say I'm fine. And I know I was as an 11-year-old, my parents were splitting up, it was a difficult divorce. Rather than telling people what I was going through, of course, I don't remember anybody asking it. That's another part that was so weird about that. But it was easier for me to say I'm fine than to it was the kind of thing my dad said he thought the divorce was hardest on me. And I said, What are you talking about, Dad? I'm fine. I was fine. But the truth is I wasn't. My emotional needs weren't being met. So can we do that? How can we do that? You know, the the thing I think is true, and I the fact that you're doing this kindness matters podcast indicates that you know it's true too. There's good people out there doing good things. The thing that I'm hoping to do is create some sense of movement. Like, is this I like the word initiatives? We have two, but can this be a movement within your school? Can this be a movement within your culture of your organization so that people are more intentional about it? You know, I I think it starts with that question, you know, or the starts with the desire, maybe like, hey, I want to be someone for someone. And then we have to make a decision, like, yes, I can be. And then it becomes that affirmation that happens in the moment with the intention that says, I am someone for someone. So you wake up in the morning and go, okay, today I'm gonna be someone for someone. And by setting the intention out there, it may not happen, but it's out there and you may not know if it happens or not. Sometimes it's uh as small a thing as holding the door open for somebody. But the mindset says, I'm gonna be there for someone.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Yeah, yeah, and that sets the the tone for the whole day, right? It does. Even if even if no situation presents itself where you can actually be someone for someone, you're ready if it does, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:14

Yeah. You know, and I just thought of this as we're talking, it may not be a situation where I'm someone for someone else, but then I could be that someone for myself. You know, maybe I could stand in that that sense of, yeah, I have to put on my own mask before I can, you know, help others out. Maybe it's about being someone for myself as well.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

Yeah. And that could that I mean when you look at the the ripple effect of we're gonna call it a movement now, this movement. Um what is the ultimate world that you're trying to create through be someone for someone? And that's kind of a big question, I apologize.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Yeah, it is. Uh so I've had a mission for a long time to create a joyful world by maximizing the best of human potential. And so for me, that mission is never going to be complete. But if it's that, like you said, that whole ripple effect where we drop that pebble in the pond and it might ripple out from what one person from me to somebody else. But then if we go and do that each to another person, well now it's four, and then it's eight, and then it's sixteen. And so can it be something where I I I think my goal, my hope is that it can be something going to be worldwide, sure, that'd be amazing. Will it be? I would be fantastic. I don't honestly know that, but it doesn't stop me from wanting to try that. Um, but can we do that in our own, kind of our own subcultures first, our only our own microcosm first, um, within my band program, within uh whatever grade level it is at school, whatever, you know, within the teaching staff, which within your managerial staff, your leadership, whatever it is, yeah, can you create that be someone for someone movement within the your own structure, your own boundaries, your own your own structure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

John, I so appreciate what you're doing here and in the world and and the the um the work that you're doing with your with your see this is the part I'll have to edit. Um with your speaking engagements and your and your mentoring and of course the the be someone for someone. I I I wish you all of the the luck in the world, and I know you're gonna be great. This'll go global. You'll make it look global. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Thank you. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

And I appreciate you taking the time to be on this little tiny podcast today. Um, it means the world to me. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Thanks for having me, Mike. Human first.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Thanks so much for hanging out with us for today's episode of the Kindness Matters Podcast with my guest, John Knepper. I really appreciate you tuning in and being a part of this kind of community that we're building. If you liked what you heard, leave a quick review or a comment. It really helps others find the show. And it means a lot of things personally as well. Hey, if you can't support us financially, that's totally okay. The best way you can support the show is to go out and do one random act of time this first year. But if you are in a position to help us go, you can make a one-time gift or find one of our monthly supporters here over on Find Me a Coffee. The link, along with the links for my books and the books, are in the show notes. And you can find it all there. We'll be back again next week with another new episode. But until then, November Times Matters.