Empathy Isn’t Weakness

A bold claim said empathy is “toxic.” We took that personally—and turned it into a rich, practical conversation about what empathy really is, how it works, and why it makes families, classrooms, and communities stronger. With consultant, author, and caregiver Linda Lemos, we move past slogans and look at empathy as a skill you can learn, teach, and use every day without lowering standards or excusing harm.

We start with caregiving, where pain and patience collide and where boundaries and compassion must live together. Linda shares how empathy shifts reactions from reflexive judgment to informed response, especially when behavior is driven by pain, fear, or medication changes. From there, we zoom into schools. What happens when empathy is built into the culture? Kids take intellectual risks, ask real questions, and navigate conflict instead of fearing it. We compare U.S. realities with Norway’s long-standing commitment to empathy training and emotional regulation across grades, as well as cooperative learning and dialogue-first conflict resolution.

We also push back on the idea that “feelings” distract from learning. Emotional regulation strengthens focus, problem solving, and resilience—the bedrock of academic success. Cutting counselors and relying on policing as a first response creates brittle systems that punish rather than teach. We talk about what breaks down when empathy is dismissed—trust, communication, accountability—and how that shows up at home, at school, and online. Then we get practical: simple scripts you can use today, like “Help me understand what you’re feeling” or “Tell me more about how you see this,” and small acts of curiosity that rebuild connection in everyday places.

If you’re ready to replace hot takes with human skills, this conversation offers hope and a toolkit. Listen, share with someone who cares about kids and community, and leave a review to help others find the show. Subscribe for more stories and practice you can use this week.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And 150th Milestone
• 3:00 Introducing Linda And Caregiving Lens
• 5:20 Is Empathy Weakness
• 9:30 Defining Empathy And Boundaries
• 14:20 Mocking Compassion In Public Life
• 18:30 Empathy’s Role In Schools
• 23:40 Norway’s Model And SEL
• 28:30 Culture, Regulation, And Support Systems
• 33:00 Countering The “Feelings Distract” Argument

Transcript

Welcome And 150th Milestone

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Welcome to the Kindness Matters podcast. That kindness can change the world. Every week I aim to finalize up people and organizations making a positive difference to their communities. Probably compassion, empathy, and connection. So pride. This podcast is about 40 stories. It's about three-fourth and cats. Through hot felt conversations, firing access. If the message of this show resonates with you, please share it with your friends and family. Because when it comes to kindness, the ripple effect is limitless. Hey, hello, and welcome everybody to the show. Thank you so much. You are listening to the Kindness Matters podcast. I'm your host, as always, Mike Rathman. I don't know why I do it like that. This sounds fun. Anyhow, I so appreciate the fact that you are here, that you took a half hour, 40 minutes, whatever the case may be, out of your day, to engage with us in this conversation. Conversation about kindness and what it looks like in the world. And um, by the way, and nobody asked, but I'll tell you anyway, right, that this is our 150th episode.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Congratulations, woo-hoo.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Thank you so much. That voice you're hearing, by the way, is my guest for today, Linda Limos. Um I did it wrong, didn't I? No, it's fine. It's fine. That's fine. Linda Limos.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Yeah.

Introducing Linda And Caregiving Lens

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Uh Linda is a consultant. Apparently, she has seven jobs. Um, she's an author and she's also a caregiver to her aging parents. And why that's important is because uh to this is gonna be the first of a series of episodes I do. Um, I was doom scrolling one day a couple weeks ago, and I saw uh a mention that uh that compassion or empathy was weak or bad. Um as a matter of fact, I saw a quote from a Christian, conservative Christian pastor, Josh McPherson. And the quote was empathy needs to be struck from the Christian vocabulary. Empathy is toxic.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Wow. That's I know.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

And I'm like, I need to do an episode on this because I don't think it is. It's not, is it?

SPEAKER_01 3:34

No, it's not. No.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

So and uh as a caregiver to your parents, you I mean, that requires a great deal of empathy and compassion, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Oh, absolutely. Um, caring for, you know, aging parents, um, it's not easy and it requires a great deal of empathy. Um, you have to understand many times they may be tired, cranky. Sometimes uh a change in medication can cause a disturbance in their behavior. Um, pain is the worst because people, and even when I've been in pain, uh pain's the worst because most people will lash out when they're in pain. And you can't take it personally because, again, it's because due to the pain. And that's one of the things that that I had to learn. Um, I think being a caregiver for my parents makes me realize um how important empathy is. And one day in the future, should I become a parent? Um, I think it's gonna make me a better parent and more empathetic towards my own children.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Oh, absolutely. I it can't help but um that and you're taking on a role now that your parents once had with you, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Exactly. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

It all comes full circle.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Mm-hmm. It all comes full full circle. And empathy is really putting um, it's an ability to recognize humanity in someone else and to put yourself in in their shoes.

Is Empathy Weakness

SPEAKER_02 5:08

Yeah, for sure. So, okay, here's one for you. When you think about empathy in everyday life, right? How would you describe what it is and maybe more importantly, what it is not?

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Okay. Um well, the first question is Yes. The first I have to answer that question with the question, but one of the things that has to be done is that you have to pause and ask, you know, what else, what is this person carrying that I don't see and that I can't see, right? Empathy is not indulgence, it's not weakness. It it's it's not the absence of boundaries, neither. Empathy doesn't mean excusing harmful behavior or abandoning standards. It just means responding to people, understanding rather than judgmental or a reflect reflexive judgmental uh way. Um, it's not about being soft, it's more about being aware.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Yes, absolutely. Um so and that kind of answered both those questions. It's not about being soft, it's not about it's not about weakness, it's about understanding what another human being is carrying, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Yeah, and there's which reminds me of that that quote um the people you meet in life are fighting battles you'll know nothing about. Exactly. Be kind, right? Um and you you have spoken um about your dismay at seeing empathy framed as weakness. Can you show share? Show share. Show share. Uh can you share a moment when you first realized that that was happening in America?

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Oh wow, that's such a good question. I think um many times we've noticed or we've come across, whether at work or at school or in the public, when compassion is mocked, um, especially in public discourse, you know, words like snowflake, too sensitive, emotional, or even when someone has a response where they are crying, um, being um dismissed as legitimate pain. And that was the turning point for me. When a society starts treating empathy as something embarrassing or dangerous, it's often because acknowledging suffering would require accountability for change. Uh and yes, and that's there's a lot of undercurrent um with the world and world actions that we see on the news every day. So we do see see a lot of those um news references with regards to the suffering of people and how it's just dismissed. You know, empathy has become inconvenient, so it's reframed as as weakness.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Oh boy. Yeah, that okay, that just opened up a whole can of worms. Um no, you said you you noticed it, was it in school?

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Oh, yeah, absolutely. In school, um, sometimes certain um work environments, as you well know, I've worked in about ten industries throughout my career. So every every industry is different and and some are very tough.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

Yeah, oh for sure. Well, you are well rounded. Yes. Um I okay, here's one for you.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

In communities or classrooms where empathy is present, what becomes possible that it simply does not happen without it.

Defining Empathy And Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Well, I think empathy is also one of the first foundational, I would say a foundational brick for education because it allows people to to feel safe. Uh, when empathy exists, children take intellect intellectual risks, they ask more questions, they're not afraid to ask questions in the classroom. Um people ask questions instead of per performing. Conflict doesn't become something that um they navigate or something that they fear. Without empathy, empathy. I am so sorry. That was my timer. I'm so sorry. Pardon for that. Yeah, something's done, but anyhow. But people ask, so conflict becomes something to navigate rather than something to fear, and without empathy, people focus on self-protection. And with it, they focus on growth, creativity, and connection.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Yeah, for sure. And and it's true because in and we see it, right? Um when when schools or school systems tell a teacher, for example, that they can't hang a sign that says everyone is welcome here.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

Right? And what what does that what does that say to the kids that go to school there? What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 10:57

I could it could say it can mean a lot of things to different kids depending on their culture um and their religious um background. So it can mean a lot of things. Uh for some people it could mean that only certain people are are are favored and so forth. So, but yeah, no, I think everyone should be welcomed. I don't I don't see an offense in a in a sign like that.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Yeah, no, and I and I I can't think of it. I mean, even as bad as we are in some circles in this country, I don't think that there's anybody who would say, well, of course everybody's welcome here, you know. Or I I don't think anybody would argue that, right? Mm-hmm. Yes. Even as bad as we are in in some circles in this country, I can't see anybody having a problem with that sign.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Correct. You know, it's very interesting, you know, we not to get in too far into our American history, but back in the 1930s into the 1960s, there were lots of signs where certain groups of individuals um and people were not allowed into a restaurant and so forth. Um I always I have a lot of hope for the future and a lot of hope for for education and that you know things will come around. And I'm very comparative, as you well know. I compare other countries and what are they doing, and why can't we implement um some of the great things that other nations are doing?

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Yeah, you and I talked about that, and and you talked a lot about um Norway.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

And what what is it that Norway does that we don't do that you think might be beneficial for for our schools?

SPEAKER_00 12:37

I think most uh most beneficial would be empathy training that is required from the ages of six all the way up to twelfth grade. Uh they do that in Norway, and I think that would be great. That would stop a lot of um school fights between the children, that would stop a lot of the bullying, um, that would create a more um welcoming environment, especially high school. We've all been in high school. We know about the clicks and the groups and so forth. So I think empathy training here would be fundamental in the United States, as well as um it could possibly even solve some of the mass shootings that we've had as well. Um, sometimes it's been someone who's been in the classroom who's been picked on. Sometimes it's someone who doesn't feel that they belong. And sometimes it's been an outsider who remembers that school and relates it to a bad memory, and then they create this um horror, really.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Yeah, for sure. Um, but now, okay, so you you have do you do you know what some of that teaching looks like?

SPEAKER_00 13:50

You know, I'm not aware of I haven't informed myself um so much as to what that teaching looks like, but you know what? You've given me a great idea. Maybe this could be my dissertation for my doctoral degree.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Oh, Dr. Linda. I'm how's that coming?

Mocking Compassion In Public Life

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Oh, it's coming along on my second semester, and it's a challenge. Every semester there's a new challenge, but it's it's just about pushing, it's about pushing through.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

Yeah. So so and I I I'm I'm woefully uninformed as to, I mean, I know that Norway and and some other Scandinavian countries, I think, teach this in school, teach empathy. Um, is that kind of like social emotional learning SEL?

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Yes. So what it really does, it's it's social, but they see it as a skill that is needed and essential now um to society. And I think, yeah, there's definitely a necessity for that. Um there are ways, I think there's also other classes that schools could have, um, speaking in general. I also believe there should be more support systems for our K through 12 uh professors. Uh there aren't um as many psychiatrists or counselors on the school, on the school premises. Um, colleges and universities are better at that in the United States, but we don't really have that fundamental support uh that's needed and very crucial um during these moments of K through 12, only because of um, you know, the children's bodies are changing, hormones, parents' divorces or remarriages, and so on and so forth, and conflicts that they may have at home.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Yeah, for sure. Um and we see that, and I think it I think most of the bullying probably starts around middle school.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

And but yeah, and by the time you get to high school, it it's a mess. Um and and and isn't it strange that so many school districts and I'm speaking generally about Minnesota because that's what I know, um, but they're facing such a a budget shortfall, right? And and it's true that one of the first things they're gonna cut when they have to take the knife to the to the budget is probably gonna be mental health services.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Right. Which is so crucial and it's something that's highly needed.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

Yeah, absolutely. Um how do you see Norwegian culture reinforcing empathy outside of the classroom? Um, in public spaces, for example, policies or daily life. What might that tell us about what kids absorb as I'm using air quotes, everybody. I know this is a an audio-only podcast, normal.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Well, Norway system prioritize belonging and they prioritize play. They also prioritize something that I wish we had here in the United States, and that's emotional regulation alongside academics. There's no teach teaching on emotional uh regulation and how to regulate your emotions so that you don't explode, so that you don't reach out and hit someone, so you don't um yell or scream. So there's a deeper understanding in Norway that children learn best when they feel secure, respected, and valued within a community.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

Okay. So what you called that, I'm sorry. Um emotional regulation. Thank you. Emotional regulation is that so that's basically teaching children to what count to five? Exactly. Count to end before they read.

Empathy’s Role In Schools

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Understand their emotions, absolutely, which is that's so highly uh essential. Um, I didn't receive that education until after my bachelor's degree. Oh wow. And that was through a private company that taught those type of things. But we all need them and we're all taught differently, right? We all have different households and different customs, you know. They um yeah, so Norwegian schools, they do they teach children that your feelings and their feelings matter, which is really interesting because here in the US US, we don't we don't talk about our feelings, and that's why we are one of the nations that have problems with mental health. You know, they teach in Norway things like cooperative learning, outdoor education, and conflict resolution practices that emphasizes dialogue over punishment, which is different. We don't teach children to regulate their emotions, and we're quick to punish, whether it's a teacher or whether it's a parent. And this there's less emphasis on constant ranking, and there's more emphasis on group responsibility. And children learn early um that their well-being is connected to others, uh, which quietly instills empathy on social norm. So sorry, I did read a little bit, I just had to be reminded. Oh, that's fine.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Okay. Um so if if if schools in America um were to adopt This. I'm gonna ask you now to look into your crystal ball. Yes. If we're to adopt this this type of of educating, um, this type of learning. Um over time, what changes um in bullying, mental health, classroom conflict, or even civic engagement do you think that that would bring about?

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Well, I think through the policies in the daily life, public spaces, you know, are designed to be shared and to be shared by all. So I think social safety nets would communicate if you're not abandoned, you know, children absorb that that model. Um, they become adults acting with social trust and collective responsibility and empathy. So empathy would become normal, not exceptional.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Oh, I see. And and that would I mean, obviously, I it's probably not. I shouldn't even ask that as a question, and it would logically follow that that would improve civic engagement, public discourse.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, what's one of the greatest, strongest emotions that the human being has? It's either one, jealousy, very strong emotion.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

It happens to children, it happens to adults as well. And the second one is anger. And we've seen anger get the best out of so many people, um, from politicians to sports and athletes and even singers, right? And they've all gone to core, they've all have had issues. So again, we're not just seeing it for the children, we're seeing it even for adults and for uh professional and well-known adults and celebrities.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Yes, absolutely. Um but now playing devil's advocate.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

I see that.

unknown 22:03

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

Um some people would argue that teaching about feelings um in school is a day is a distraction from uh real learning. Man, you know, why when I was a kid we didn't learn about feelings, we reading, writing, and arithmetic. That's what we learned about, and that's all we needed. You're counter to that?

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Oh, absolutely. Well, I believe in a progressive society, and um we do change as a society um due to uh geopolitical situations, um, whether we also socioeconomical situations and death, you know, certain things that were true back in the 1950s are no longer true in 2025. You know, even our climate has changed and so on and so forth. You know, I would say the opposite is true. Children who learn empathy also learn emotional regulation, they learn problem solving, and problem solving is essential for everything that you're gonna do in life. Um, those are resilient skills. Suppressing emotions doesn't make kids stronger, it makes them brittle.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Yeah. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

And most adults, most adults, sorry, most adults should not ever make a decision when they're angry.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

No, I make all of my worst decisions when I'm angry.

Norway’s Model And SEL

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Yeah, or reply to an email when you're angry.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

Ooh, yeah, never a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Yeah, no. Um write it, but don't send it.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

So for for those people who think that that empathy or compassion is is soft or partisan, what misunderstandings do you think are at the root of that? And how can we gently correct them?

SPEAKER_00 24:09

I think they're com they're confused. You know, empathy, they uh they think empathy is agreement or compassion with permissiveness, and that's not what empathy is. Empathy doesn't erase standards, it's it's strengthen, it makes them stronger, makes the standards stronger. It allows us to correct behavior without dehumanizing people. And it's not partisan, it's neurological, social, and it's it's deeply human.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

Yeah. So how can we gently correct them when they say empathy, don't teach my kid empathy, that's weak. You're teaching my kid to be weak.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Well, we're actually empathy teaching is teaching um your child how to regulate their emotions, you know, and that's also another uh great um teaching that needs to be used because a lot of kids start getting in trouble in school when they're in middle school or high school. Uh, there are high schools, I believe my friend told me this um in the Bronx where they actually have um police departments inside the school. So instead of the kid having a, you know, having a regular suspension or a regular detention, they're actually getting like a criminal record for some of the things that they're doing in school because they actually have a police station inside the school. And I believe that is horrendous and horrible. And that should be the last resort and not the first resort.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Yeah. So not just like a because I think most schools, and and listener, you can correct me if you'd like it. Tell me what it is like in your place where you live. But I think most schools have a security resource officer, an SRO, right? This is you're talking about a full-on police station.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

They have a full, I was amazed when she informed me of that. But yes, they have a full-on police um station. How bad is that school? It well, I would I would assume that it's it's it's pretty bad, but then again, it's about teaching. And sometimes, you know, um, maybe that many parents don't have that teaching as either. There are parents, there are parents, we've all watched the housewives, right? The Bravo Housewives. We've seen those women punch at each other and and kick each other and grab each other's wigs and fight and so on and so forth. Um, and when we demonstrate that and show that, we think that it's okay to do that in society, but it really isn't. You know, and I think and some parents, how many of our parents, if if they're old school parents, they and you you were a child, your parent would tell you, oh, well, if someone hits you, hit them back.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

Yeah, I don't I don't think my mom was like that. I remember years ago I was in I was in grade school still, and some kid wanted to fight me. And I didn't want to fight him, right? I was like, and I avoided him for like two weeks. I have no idea why he wanted to fight me.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

Why do any k why does any kid wanna? Maybe he thought it was easy and I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

Um so I was walking home from school and um he caught up to me. Him and his friends caught up to me. I ran. We ended up in some person's front yard.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

And it was unavoidable. I couldn't avoid it any longer, and so we fought. And do you remember that scene in a Christmas story?

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

Where Ralphie and who was the kid with green teeth?

SPEAKER_00 27:49

I can't remember. It's been so long.

Culture, Regulation, And Support Systems

SPEAKER_02 27:51

I can't remember his his name. Yes. Parkas. Uh-huh. I can't remember his last name. Anyway, where Ralphie just like loses it on the kid. That was me. And I remember crying in bed that night because I hit the kid in the temple and I thought I'd killed him. Oh no. And I was just devastated. But yeah, I mean, there are those people who who say that's a perfectly reasonable solution to a problem. Is it? I don't know. Um Okay. One more thing be before we start wrapping up here. Because I think this is important. And I I think I mean and I know what you're I think I'm gonna know what you're gonna say. Can you paint a picture of what breaks down in families, in schools, in in public life when empathy is missing or dismissed as a liability? And I think I know what you're gonna say.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Look around.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Yeah, when it's dismissed as a liability. Yeah, I think we were talking about this before we even came on the show. Um, and I think we we've seen we see in our society and we see it um oh my god, we see it so much on social media. Um what breaks down first is trust, communication, then accountability. If families' empathies are absence, it looks like silence and resentment. And sometimes you get a lot of resentment that is built because um your parent doesn't understand what you're going through or the child doesn't understand what the parent's going through. In school, it looks like discipline without understanding. Um so I think if you you administer discipline, you also have to administer understanding as to why there is discipline. And in public life, it can look like cruelty being normalized. You know, when empathy is dismissed, people stop seeing one another as human beings and start seeing each other as obstacles or threats. And one of the most recent ones, which I see very much on social media, is the lack of empathy for people that are being detained for with regards to immigration and ICE. Um, the way that they're being detained is pretty horrendous. There are ways to detain someone in a more um civic manner, and there's ways to to implement, but there hasn't been an immigration reform which is direly needed in this country. And perhaps in the future, that will come in. And I hope that people do have some um empathy with with regards to that. Um there's so many situations that people go through um that sometimes they're just not aware. And I will tell you, 80-90% of people's problems most of the times is because their lack of information and their lack of of knowledge. And it's ridiculous, but in this country, like 80-90% don't understand legal, nor do they legalese or legal, nor do they know the laws.

SPEAKER_02 31:21

Yeah. Well, and and just I mean, I think if we were able to let let's try to wrap this up on a hopeful note, shall we? Oh yeah, absolutely. If we were able to just put aside our assumptions and maybe it's as easy as going down to I don't know, a restaurant, a family-owned restaurant where you live, right? And sitting down and and maybe talk to the server or or the owners if they're there. Just have a conversation with them and say, you know, where did you come from? How did you get here? Or we just ask questions. And I think that would probably help a lot or go a long way towards restoring our empathy.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

Yes, definitely. And you know, what a practical thing that a listener could do this week to model empathy is to pause before correcting and ask one genuine question, like you've just said, before offering an opinion. You know, if it's with a child, you know, ask the child, help me understand what you're feeling. You know, so many times we've all seen the terrible twos and the tantrums that children have at times. And with adults, it's okay to ask them, tell me more on how you see this. You know, those moments matter more than what we think. And that's a better way to connect with another human being.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

So let that be your goal as you go out this week. Um try connecting with one person you don't know. Right?

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

Fantastic. Linda Limos, thank you so much for your time today. I really, really, really, really appreciate it. I am so honored to have you on as my 150th guest on the on the podcast. Um, anything you want to promote?

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Oh, yes. So season four of Linda Love Talks podcast um will re-emerge 2026. We're looking at January right now, and I do have books out. You can find me on Amazon for the books. It's um under Linda Limos. You can uh just do the search on Amazon. And lastly, I am working on my memoir, which will probably be out 2026, 2027.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

Perfect. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

We will have links for all of your socials. Is that the best place to find your books and and your podcasts? Amazon.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

You can go on Amazon, you can find the podcast, you can find the books as well.

SPEAKER_02 34:02

Oh, nice. Perfect. Thank you, Linda. We will talk again soon.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

It's time we are human.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

Thank you so much for joining this episode of the Kindness Matters podcast and spending part of your day with us and our guests, Linda Lebo. Truly appreciate it, and the hope is that you're taking something positive and encouraging with you into the rest of your week. If this episode resonated with you, please share it with a friend and consider leaving a review or a comment on the episode. Your feedback helps others find the shell and keeps the conversation about kindness going. You're also invited to connect with the community on social media, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and YouTube, where more uplifting content and updates are shared. Don't forget to subscribe to Discord so you never miss an update, special feature, new release, or more uplifting content about Times. And also, be sure to check out the brand merch store, so you can pick up the cool Times Matters podcast here, just supposed to show. And remember, the postings from every purchase go to a nonprofit doing good in the world. Both of those links are in the show notes, so check it out right now. We'll be back again next week. I'm your host, Mike Ramson. You've been listening to the Timest Matters podcast. We'll have another episode next week.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

So these are the same.