The Kindness Matters Podcast
So. Much. Division. Let's talk about how to change that. Re-engage as neighbors, friends, co-workers and family. Let's set out to change the world. Strike that. Change A World. One person at a time, make someone's life a little better and then do it again tomorrow and the day after that, through kindness.
Kindness is a Super-Power that each of us has within us. It is so powerful it has the potential to change not only your life but those around you, too. Let's talk about kindness.
The Kindness Matters Podcast
Overcoming Math Anxiety: Empowerment and Personal Growth Through Education
Struggling with math anxiety isn't just a childhood challenge—it's a widespread issue affecting many adults, and I'm no stranger to it myself. Join me as I sit down with Sabina Dallmeyer, a seasoned expert in tackling math anxiety, to uncover how this often-misunderstood fear can shape life choices and limit career paths. Through our conversation, we explore the powerful link between math anxiety and test anxiety, as well as the societal and educational pressures that perpetuate these fears. Sabina shares practical resources like math anxiety screeners, offering hope and strategies for anyone looking to address their anxieties and change their relationship with math.
Our discussion doesn't stop at anxiety; we also navigate the broader implications of how math education is traditionally structured. From early academic tracking to cultural attitudes about math ability, we examine how these factors can limit opportunities and foster a culture where it's acceptable to shy away from math. Sabina and I delve into the life skills math education can cultivate, such as resilience and persistence, and how overcoming math anxiety can serve as a metaphor for facing life's most daunting challenges. With an emphasis on kindness, empathy, and the importance of continuous learning, this episode invites listeners to reconsider math as more than just numbers and equations, but as a path to personal growth and empowerment.
#math #anxiety #tutor
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Well, hello there and welcome. You are listening to the Kindness Matters podcast and I am your host, mike Rathbun. What is this podcast all about? It's about kindness. It's a pushback against everything negative that we see in the news and on social media today, and it's a way to highlight people, organizations that are simply striving to make their little corner of the world a little better place. If you want to join in on the conversation, feel free, Go ahead and follow us on all of your social media feeds. We're on Facebook, instagram, tiktok. We're even on LinkedIn under Mike Rathbun. Check us out. We're even on LinkedIn under Mike Rathbun. Check us out. And, in the meantime, so sit back, relax, enjoy and we'll get into the Kindness Matters podcast. Hey, welcome to the show everybody. Thank you so much for taking the 30 minutes or what have you out of your day To listen to this little podcast. I really, really appreciate it and, as always, if there's something in this podcast that moves you or inspires you or motivates you, please feel free to share it with your friends and family and, of course, follow us on all of our socials. Those links will be in the show notes.
Speaker 1:I'm going to start off today by telling you a story. It's a story of a little boy who did not like math very much and he spent hours and hours and hours at his kitchen table with his mom or his dad and just not understanding math and getting frustrated to the point where he would actually get physically ill if he had math class the next day at school. And full disclosure. That little boy is me, but thankfully we have as our guest today somebody who helps people get over that, and it's something. Okay, I'll just. My guest today is Sabina Dahlmeyer, and she is that person. Welcome to the show, sabina. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:I love being that person. You are that person. Welcome to the show, Sabina. Thank you so much. I love being that person.
Speaker 1:You are that person and there's an actual name for this right. It's called math anxiety.
Speaker 2:Math anxiety. So when I say that term, people really immediately know whether it's something they've experienced, and up to 93% of adults say they've experienced it.
Speaker 1:Shut up. That's a lot. That's like almost everybody.
Speaker 2:That's what I say. It's almost everybody Wow.
Speaker 1:And so, okay, this is not something that there is a medication for, obviously.
Speaker 2:No, it is closely related to test anxiety. And there is many people do for sure. So it is separate from like school anxiety or school avoidance, and those are generally recognized in the mental health field. Math anxiety is generally just what it sounds like it's when you think you might have to do math or when you will have to do math and you start to maybe your heart races or maybe you get nauseous or maybe you just kind of had that fear and dread.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, okay. So I play these games on my lap, on my, my, my tablet, and it's supposed to be designed for seniors, to help increase your cognizant, whatever.
Speaker 2:And and they do have a section on math where you have to do like percentages, like absolutely freak out, my palms get sweaty, have you, I'm okay with simple addition and subtraction, maybe some multiplication, a little light division, but after that for sure, and there are so many people that the the concern that I have is math anxiety limits people's career choices. Even people will choose their math, their university or their major based on how much math is required. When you go to Google you start searching how much math? It'll'll say how much math do you need to go into, like fields like mental health, where we really need people, and people are too concerned to enter any of those fields because they're afraid of how much math they'll have to do, which is wild to me so somebody who might be a really good at at mental health or helping people with mental health might not go into that career choice because of how much math they need.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and we're not exactly sure where math anxiety comes from, but we know that positive math experiences can combat it. So I imagine that you're talking about some mean math teachers that you've had.
Speaker 1:Or my parents, either or. But that's a whole other line of discussion. That's maybe another show.
Speaker 2:For sure.
Speaker 1:So why do you think that people are so anxious about doing math?
Speaker 2:So for a lot of the things that you discuss frequently on your show, right, there is a lack of empathy between people and people can really struggle. So we know in general there's an epidemic of anxiety In general. The Surgeon General has even put out a memo on the topic, especially of youth mental health. Anxiety is a huge problem. So, and I do believe a lot of that comes from lack of connection, lack of affirmation, lack of kindness between one another.
Speaker 2:And so I think in math people can be risk averse, right. They can be afraid of being wrong, so therefore they avoid math, like you are talking about in your app. Maybe you avoid math, or if you're a student, you leave that math assignment to last. Then what that results in is less practice with math. So then you're less able to do math because you avoid math, and then it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy, right?
Speaker 1:You become a poor math student and horrible at math. You tell yourself that and then you are.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow, and so this can be a lifelong thing, right?
Speaker 2:I mean, it starts when you're trying to learn your multiplication tables and it just follows you the rest of the way through life yeah, if you start googling, there's several different like measures, like tests you know that you can take online, and there's some all the way down to elementary school age where they're called math anxiety screeners and I can probably link some in the show notes for your listeners math anxiety screeners that go all the way down to elementary and all the way up. And there is a lot of concern about math anxiety showing up in those young ages because we're not sure where it's coming from, because if you're having math anxiety in kindergarten and first grade, that is probably not from lack of ability. There's something else there Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm not here to knock parents, but I know when my kids were in school and they would come home with math and why do they? Okay, I'm diverting here. It was always a struggle because I was not good at it, probably because I told myself I wasn't good at it when I was younger and my kids would come home and they'd go. I need help with this and I'd point at my wife there's your answer right over there, and but they change math, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, you're right.
Speaker 1:But they change how they teach it. Yes, the new math.
Speaker 2:This is a big, big interesting thing for those of us who are geeky about our profession. So, math teachers definitely there was the new math and this and it's happened again. You know common core math is the way people talk about it. The ways that they teach math in school and the methods that they use do change, but math textbooks do not go out of date the same way that a science textbook would.
Speaker 2:Right, so the math concepts are the same, the methods we're using to find answers are different and the level of conceptual connection that are expected from students that's different. There is so much it's called the math wars, there's so much disagreement about how math should be taught, and I do think you're right. It has bred distrust between parents and the school system, or parents and math. They say, oh well, that's not the way I was taught, I can't help you. Instead of my antidote that I love to recommend to people, my secret weapon against math anxiety is curiosity. So instead of saying I wonder, or can you explain it to me? Or let's look, just the curiosity I always say, that's what makes people walk down the dark hall in a horror movie. Right, your curiosity overpowers your anxiety.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, for sure. So, basically, when our kids are coming home and presenting us with new math, new math, Yep. With math and they're learning it differently than we are or than we did. You're saying we should just be curious. So basically they're teaching both of us at the same time.
Speaker 2:Well, here's what I think I have. I talk to hundreds of parents every year on this topic hundreds. It's something I love to talk about, I can't stop talking about it and I think the value is connection right. So if I was tutoring a student working on long division which I can hear the groans from here, long division is a sticking point for many people and the way that they've taught people to do it over the years has changed and I was if I was working with a young student and mom was saying, well, that's not the way I was taught, I might ask mom to show well, how were you taught? And we can model some things and we can try to find similarities between the two ways.
Speaker 2:It's not wrong to teach your children the way that you were taught. Definitely, show them that and see if you can draw the connections. And I will give you a hint Most of the time, what they're trying to get at is place value. I just want you to understand place value, but it's, it's. There's so much commonality that I think you just have to resist the urge to kind of tense up and fight, just if you can just stay curious and I wonder, oh, I wonder, what they're doing here instead of no. This is wrong, and that's a great philosophy for many areas of life that's a great philosophy for many areas of life.
Speaker 1:That's a great philosophy, yes, in general for life. And you know, I think it was my math anxiety. It got to a point because, you know, as you move along from grade to grade, you're getting more and different and more difficult math, difficult math, and I actively avoided taking any kind. I didn't take calculus, I didn't take trigonometry. I'm pretty sure I had to take algebra, but it's like childbirth, my brain has forgotten it.
Speaker 2:Oh, what a great, what a great way to describe it.
Speaker 1:What a great way to describe it. And so you know that probably hindered my professional development or my career, or what have you.
Speaker 2:For sure, and actually this is very observable, and this is the topic of actually lots of legislation there's laws trying to pass different things about that of actually lots of legislation. There's laws trying to pass different things about that. I'll say so, math avoidance, which is what you're talking about, is, I think, the number one symptom of math anxiety. So a lot of times this is actually particularly pronounced with students who have been labeled as gifted or smart kids, right? So if you get put in those high level classes in elementary and middle school, then you're much less likely to take high level math in high school. And I think it comes down to right.
Speaker 2:Why would I take calculus and get a C when I could take personal finance and get an A? Don't take the risk, even if it may be beneficial, because there is other research to suggest that the number of math classes you take in college is the best predictor of your future salary. So I think we're really cutting off some possibilities here. I always tell my strong students I say you know math has a lot. Of math can make a way. You can find a very high paying, low stress job if you're willing to engage with math, because many people are not.
Speaker 1:Huh, that's interesting, and so now I guess we never even really discussed it Is what is your, your professional role? Are you? You're a teacher?
Speaker 2:I am. I'm a math teacher. I just happen to really be fascinated by the topic of math anxiety and teaching, so I love I work with students who have experienced math failure in the past, usually on a big state test with a lot of anxiety, and I coach them. I always say I want to get them off the sidelines and back in the game.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, for sure. I'm trying to think back and I don't. I don't think we had standardized tests when I was going to school like they do today. You know, mcats is that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Is that one of them? That's one of the tests.
Speaker 2:The tests are all different in every state but even something like an exam or a final exam, they carried more weight before standardized testing and the way that that developed was different in every state. So, yeah, those testing checkpoints, they can kind of be like points in the map, right. They can kind of be like little or buoys in the ocean, we'll say place markers that help. You know like that's how I felt at that time. Or it can have a big memory effect. You see in the old movies people working on like these big paper packets that they had to rip open and complete these big tests. Yes, yes, and the heightened anxiety there, some of it comes from the rigidness that math is sometimes taught very rigidly. You have to stay, you have to think this way and I remember one of the most hurtful things that was ever said to me as a person is what a stupid thing to think. And I think in math sometimes people will get the idea that I'm thinking, the way I'm thinking about something is wrong and that's just hard to recover from.
Speaker 1:It really is, because that has the potential to limit you for a long, long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Into adulthood. Mm-hmm, yeah, I'm not going to go there, I'm not going to get on that couch gonna get on that it is.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, man, it gets deep, don't worry. I have been on phone calls with many a tearful adult when I discuss math anxiety yeah, and so now is there a particular standardized?
Speaker 1:Now is there a particular standardized, okay, so when you're in eighth grade, you learn this math, and when you're in ninth grade, you learn that math Is that standard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's funny that you bring that up because in part of my job I read standards from all across the country. Because I just am obsessed with this kind of stuff, I've boiled them down a little bit to make some checklists for each grade that I sell to homeschool families. It's part of my job and part of what I do and it's very interesting because this is something that's actually debated and parents may be familiar with this, but many people are not. So sometimes when you're young you get tracked, which is you're either labeled as a high achieving student or a low achieving student, and that determination in America in general is made in fifth grade. So generally when you're 12, your teacher is going to kind of decide how far you get to go academically, and that sounds dramatic, but it's not really very dramatic. It's actually pretty close to true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so I feel bad for kids who are having a rough go at life at that particular juncture because it can really impact their academic opportunity. Now there are laws that are trying to change this especially. They're like top front page news in California. They're really fighting this out in that state, but in my state as well in Virginia there was a lot of talk about that when our new governor took office, and so generally the big one is Algebra 1, right, algebra 1 is called the gateway to higher math.
Speaker 1:It's a gateway math.
Speaker 2:It is a gateway math and the placement of that class is very important. So generally students are given that class in ninth grade. But if you have Algebra 1, geometry, algebra 2, pre-calculus, then that only leaves those four years and you can't get to calculus in high school. So then there's the fight about putting algebra one in eighth grade so that people have the opportunity to get to calculus. And the pressure that many people feel from their parents, I think is for those kinds of reasons. They're looking at what you can achieve, they're maybe comparing you to their friends' children and there's a lot of pressure to achieve in math.
Speaker 2:But I think people feel intimidated about the subject matter. But they know how smart quote smart someone sounds if they're in calculus. So I think there's this kind of well. First of all, in society there's just you're allowed to be bad at math. No one makes fun of you for being bad at math. People can make jokes about being bad at math all day long, but if your child is good at math it's a bragging point. So there's these odd societal forces that are in play here that make it just very intimidating.
Speaker 1:This goes a lot deeper than just math. Is hard very intimidating.
Speaker 2:This goes a lot deeper than just math is hard, oh yeah, Math is politicized, Math is gatekept, etc. Etc. Oh boy.
Speaker 1:But okay. So now, when I was growing up, I remember and nothing has changed. Really, I don't think I will never use algebra in my daily life.
Speaker 2:Well, what I say to my students who ask me that question all the time is you know what life is hard, and I would love for you to learn that you can do hard things. So if you feel like math is this insurmountable mountain, then I would be honored to watch you climb that mountain. And how safe is it? You're not going to die, you're not going to get injured doing math, okay, so if math is the hardest thing for you and I hear that from parents and students often like I can do anything except for math, then, oh, my goodness, what would it mean if you could do math too? You could do anything.
Speaker 1:You'd be unstoppable.
Speaker 2:You'd be unstoppable. So when I get that, the questions that I hear a lot from teachers and students and parents is about cheating. You know how can I stop my students from cheating? And then also about when am I ever going to use this. Those are like two conversations.
Speaker 1:I have a lot Number one, number two, depending on the day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, depending on the audience. But one thing that I always have about when am I going to use this? First of all, right now, is your real life. You're using it right now, so you're going to use it to get yourself ahead academically, because math can make a way. And then number two like I said, this is my poster behind me. Math is tough, but so are you.
Speaker 2:I want you to learn that you can do hard things, and I would rather you learn it in math class than you learn it in your first difficult relationship. Right, you know you might think you know, when you learn that you can do hard things, then you can have that hard conversation. Or in your first job when you need to ask for a raise or you need to ask for better conditions or accommodations, like I want you to learn that you're strong. I have students who have failed the test that I'm preparing them for six, seven, eight, nine, 10 times.
Speaker 2:So for them to be able to succeed and pass the test. That's significant, that is a milestone for them and I love to coach them through that. And then, on the flip side of that coin, cheating. People are always trying to make a cheat proof test. Well, let me tell you, no such thing. Stop students from cheating is to have them value the material. That it's worth learning and it's a tough sell in math. So that's why I have to come about it in a way that when I understand what math anxiety is doing to your brain, it's making it more difficult for you to do math. So let's acknowledge that, get some tools to move past that and then let's see what you could do. Let's see if you can prove yourself to yourself, and that comes in with grading practices and all kinds of things like that. But as an adult, I just want to speak to the adults First.
Speaker 2:Math anxiety can get passed down very, very easily. So if you have math anxiety as an adult, it is worth it for you to jump on a platform like brilliantorg or Khan Academy and just engage with some math. Buy a math book, buy a biography of a famous mathematician, find a way in so that you're not passing down that math anxiety to your children. And then there are so many people who really are so frozen when math concept comes up. It becomes socially isolating. It can become challenging at the grocery store or at a restaurant or even in personal business. And I just want everyone to know that you can start at any time. Just because you're not in math class. I highly encourage you to find a way to engage with math, because that is the best way to eliminate math anxiety is to engage with math nice, that's great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I um. Yeah, it's, and oftentimes, and especially for for somebody like myself, I'm like I'm too old, I can't do that now. That's just an excuse.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's so beautiful, it's so beautiful.
Speaker 1:Math is beautiful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is. There's some really interesting things. I'll tell a great story that I love this is why it is valuable to talk about things that are difficult. Right, that's one element of kindness for sure, Like be present with someone in their struggle. So that's an amazing way that parents can frame working on that math homework too. And I've also seen the meme. You know I love you so much. I learned algebra again. Like, listen, like, do that, act of love for your children.
Speaker 2:But there was a famous mathematician this is the man who discovered logarithms, which is a math concept that you would discuss in higher level math in high school, and everyone thought that he was a sorcerer because he just he was a math guy and math was equated with definitely some illegal activities for a long, long time in history. So this man had some interesting habits and one day he would use his logical brain to solve all kinds of problems. So there was somebody stealing in his household. This was many, many, many, many centuries ago. So there's someone stealing in his household and he had all the workers in his household come and he had a black cat and he told everyone that it was his spirit animal and that it could speak to him. And so he put everybody in a room with the cat and said tell the cat whether you've been stealing. If you pet the cat, then he'll be able to tell if you're the thief, so pet the cat and then the cat's going to be able to discern for me which one of you is the thief. And then everyone came out after they had their little appointment with the cat and he knew whoever didn't have the black paint that he'd put on the cat on their hands was the thief. And so he was able to logically think his way around that problem.
Speaker 2:Another day he had a pesky neighbor who kept carrier pigeons, and the pigeons kept eating his barley. And so he took a bunch of barley, soaked it in some alcohol and put it on the ground. So then the birds ate it, and they were too drunk to fly. So he waited until his neighbor came out. And when his neighbor came out looking for his birds, he had a bag and was picking them up and putting them in the bag. So he waited until his neighbor came out. And when his neighbor came out looking for his birds, he had a bag and was picking them up and putting them in the bag. And he thought the neighbor thought he had bewitched the birds. So being a mathematician, a logitician, you can solve a lot of problems with your knowledge.
Speaker 1:See, neither of those things sound like math to me.
Speaker 2:He was a deep, deep, logical thinker. He saw through problems.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, I'll be darned. So math can make you more logical.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the other part of that story, and why I love to tell it, is because math was discovered, not invented. So there are people in this story who discovered math concepts that existed in the world, and if you are someone who is intimidated by math, I always recommend that you try reading a biography of someone who's involved in the discovery of math, because you'll see the humanity behind it.
Speaker 1:Oh sure, oh, you know what All of the names I keep coming up with are? I think they're science Scientists, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, there's Sophie Germain, ada Lovelace. I have a list of some other people. You can always start with watching Hidden Figures that movie I, that movie.
Speaker 1:I love that movie yes, that was so good Math made a way. How did she know all?
Speaker 2:of that math. She had to fight for access to that education, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean because yeah, and then who is? Was it Janelle Monae's character that went to the judge to ask to go to high?
Speaker 2:school.
Speaker 1:Just so she could go to college, because that was the only way she was going to get ahead.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, there's. I mean that's. There's stories like that all over math. Ada Lovelace was like the first computer programmer and she was a very young girl, and so to find out about the way that math made a way for some of these people, very interesting. The first woman to construct and fly her own plane there's a picture book about her. Very interesting. Similarly, she had to get a wealthy benefactor to allow her into school because there's a picture book about her. Very interesting. Similarly, she had to get a wealthy benefactor to allow her into school because she was a woman. Sorry, a lot of the people who come to mind for me are women, because those are the people I read about.
Speaker 1:No, I mean, yeah, that's so cool and that all happened because of a love and a curiosity for math.
Speaker 2:Yeah, another more recent one that you can look at is the first woman to win the Fields Medal, and I'll leave it to your listeners to Google the first woman who went to win the Fields Medal, which is the equivalent to the Nobel Prize in the world of math, and she had huge social influence. So I love when you said none of that sounds like math. When you start to look, you'd be surprised how much impact math has on culture, society, politics, education, income, finance. It's all there.
Speaker 1:Whoa politics, oh yeah. Well, Sabina, it has been absolutely wonderful talking to you. I I now I'm gonna go find a biography of was it anna lovelace?
Speaker 2:ada lovelace? Ada, yes, and sophie germain is also very interesting sophie Germain.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm going to go find it and I'm going to read it, and I don't know if I will fall in love with math. But as Ted Lasso says, be curious, not judgmental.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:And that's what I'm going to do, and I hope our listeners were too. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.
Speaker 2:Yes, thank you so much for having me. I love talking about math and kindness and compassion.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. Take care and we will talk soon. I want to thank you for taking this time to listen to this episode with my guest, sabina Dahlmeier. I hope that you were able to take something positive from this time that you spent with us and maybe you'll be inspired, maybe you'll be motivated, maybe you'll be moved to take another math class. If you experienced any of those positive feelings, please consider sharing this podcast with your friends and family. I'm always striving to offer you a better podcast and product, so give me some feedback, let me know how you think I'm doing. Email me, leave me a message on my socials. It would mean the world Also. Feel free to follow us on our socials like Facebook, instagram, linkedin and TikTok Facebook, instagram, linkedin and TikTok.
Speaker 1:This podcast is part of the Mayday Media Network. If you have an idea for a podcast and need some production assistance, or have a podcast already and are looking for a supportive network to join, check out maydaymedianetworkcom and check out the many different shows like Afrocentric Spoil, my Movie Generation Mixtape In a Pickle Radio Show, wake Up and Dream with D'Anthony Palin, staxo Pax and the Time Pals. We will be back again next week with a new episode and we would be honored if you would join us. You've been listening to the Kindness Matters Podcast. I'm your host, mike Rathbun. Have a fantastic week.
