The Kindness Matters Podcast
So. Much. Division. Let's talk about how to change that. Re-engage as neighbors, friends, co-workers and family. Let's set out to change the world. Strike that. Change A World. One person at a time, make someone's life a little better and then do it again tomorrow and the day after that, through kindness.
Kindness is a Super-Power that each of us has within us. It is so powerful it has the potential to change not only your life but those around you, too. Let's talk about kindness.
The Kindness Matters Podcast
From 'Me' to 'We': Transforming Conversations and Building Bridges with Bill Groner
Curious about how a shift from a "me" to a "we" perspective can change everything? Join us as we welcome Bill Groner, a distinguished former trial lawyer who represented Ground Zero responders (make sure to check out his book, 9/12: The Epic Battle of the Ground Zero Responders, available on Amazon) who brings his wisdom from the courtroom to the classroom. With insights from applied positive psychology, Bill reveals how empathy and selflessness can foster societal harmony, and how these principles are being taught to first-year college students. His unique perspective is bound to inspire anyone looking for ways to create more understanding and less conflict in their interactions.
Ever wonder how to make conversations productive, even when discussing heated topics like politics? We explore how genuine curiosity, conveyed through open-ended questions, can bridge divides and foster mutual respect. It's about listening to understand, not just to respond. This episode uncovers the art of connecting with those who hold different views by truly hearing them out and setting aside judgments, paving the way for unexpected friendships and newfound common ground.
Ready to refine your dialogue skills? Discover practical techniques like the LAP-P method—Listen, Acknowledge, Pivot, and Perspective—that enhance communication across ideological lines. We highlight workshops and exercises designed to transform young adults into skilled communicators who make others feel valued. Plus, learn how Braver Angels is working to mend societal divides with structured dialogue. Tune in to learn how kindness and understanding can be powerful tools in our complex world.
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Well, hello there and welcome. You are listening to the Kindness Matters podcast and I am your host, mike Rathbun. What is this podcast all about? It's about kindness. It's a pushback against everything negative that we see in the news and on social media today, and it's a way to highlight people, organizations, that are simply striving to make their little corner of the world a little better place. If you want to join in on the conversation, feel free Go ahead and follow us on all of your social media feeds. We're on Facebook, instagram, tiktok. We're even on LinkedIn under Mike Rathbun. Check us out. We're even on LinkedIn under Mike Rathbun. Check us out and, in the meantime, sit back, relax, enjoy and we'll get into the Kindness Matters podcast.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the show, everybody. Welcome to a brand new year. I am your host, mike Rathbun, and it's almost a cliche these days to say that we, as Americans are divided now more than at almost any time in our history and as we start a new year and a new presidential administration, many of us have lost so many connections over the past few years, have lost so many connections over the past few years. Coworkers, friends and family members find it almost impossible to carry on a conversation with people that we used to. What we all need is someone who can teach us how to be better, how to communicate in a deep and meaningful way with others that are important to us my guest today is Bill Groner with others that are important to us. My guest today is Bill Groner, and he is involved in many projects that, at their core, share a deep interest in how individuals can be their best selves and society can achieve its best harmony. He was a trial lawyer for more than three decades, notably representing over 10,000 ground zero responders after their toxic dust exposure while cleaning up the site post 9-11. The near decade-long lawsuit, labeled the most complex mass tort in history, gave Bill a singular and unparalleled window into humanity's selflessness in times of need and the positivity despite peril. Utilizing the myriad of lessons learned from his Ground Zero Responder clients, bill speaks regularly about how society can find better harmony by emphasizing we instead of me, and by adopting the skills and traits he has witnessed, comprising human contentment and happiness. Bill earned his master's degree in applied positive psychology from the University of Pennsylvania just this year Congratulations and he is extensively involved in adopting depolarization workshops and other curricula for various educational institutions, giving students their best possible to navigate the complexities inherent in today's society.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the show, bill. Thank you, mike. Pleasure to be here. I think that was the longest intro I've ever done. I mean it was all necessary. But yeah, how are you today, sir? I'm doing really well. Excellent, excellent, excellent. And you have so much Wow. I could speak to you just probably for a couple hours about that 9-11 or the yeah, the responder case.
Speaker 2:A decade that took huh, each having disparate situations, they all had different exposures, they had different illnesses.
Speaker 1:So the judge did not certify it as a class action. It was literally 10,000 individual lawsuits all joined together. Oh my gosh. So it wasn't like you could just settle one and move on.
Speaker 2:No, no, not at all. I mean. About eight years into it, we had a proposal and it required 95% of the people to sign off on it, which was its own adventure. Each one would get a compensation package based particularly on their circumstances.
Speaker 1:But that's fair, though it seems like that's the best, right way to do it.
Speaker 2:Oh, I think I'm very comfortable with what we did. I mean, as a plaintiff's lawyer, I always want to get more from my clients and I wish I'd gotten a lot more, but there were huge practicalities and obstacles and limitations and I'm really pleased with the result and I think justice worked out limitations and I'm really pleased with the result and I think justice worked out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, and because of all of that, you got an understanding into the way people communicate and you said I should probably teach this to people now. Are you actively teaching college? Yeah, are you a professor?
Speaker 2:Not a professor, as a volunteer I taught about 1,400 first-year college students dialogue skills.
Speaker 2:But I just want to go back and have closure on ground zero. It wasn't that I saw dialogue from that experience, but what I saw was selflessness. I saw people in this case the responders putting others before themselves and they were poorly treated and they weren't compensated for many years and they weren't given respiratory protection protection but yet almost to a man and a woman they would say in testimony if I had to go back, I'd do it again and they really looked at society as a whole. And I think that's what dialogue does. Dialogue gives you the opportunity to look at the other person and their perspective as important and not just your own perspective. And if more people did that, if we all did it, more society benefits and we create a better harmony.
Speaker 1:Yeah, harmony. That's what a lot of this is all about, right? Is it that we as Americans, as citizens, have lost our harmony?
Speaker 2:I think so. Is it that we as Americans, as citizens, have lost our harmony? I think so. I mean, my feeling is that it's not the adversity in life that fractures things, it's how we respond to the adversity. So you know, we have a very complex society. We have 330 million people, a complex society. We have 330 million people.
Speaker 2:Putting us all together is almost an experiment to figure out how we can best get along, and we have differences, we will always have differences, but differences can be looked at as a strength and not a weakness, and the concerns that I'm walking around trying to deal with is that people look at the differences as a negative instead of a positive and they respond negatively to it, and they and they are negatively impacted, at least they feel they are yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:We weren't always this way, though, or were we? It's funny because earlier this year I was I don't remember where I was, but I saw an old video of Frank Sinatra, and he was talking to these kids about all of us are different, and, you know, joey's dad is Jewish and Tommy's dad is, and that's what makes us great. So I think we kind of all grasped that and we all understood it, but somewhere along the line, something changed.
Speaker 2:You know I often think about that. I look at my father's and my grandparents' generations and there was certainly a larger amount of civility. Yeah, to me it felt like a bigger focus on character, but I don't know that there was less differences back then. It seems, over the years there's a greater comfort in expressing differences, which I think is fine as long as it's done in a constructive way, civilly yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, it's how we approach each other when we know, and a lot of the work that we do is is dialogue, but it's also an advance of the dialogue, it's really a conception, it's going into this, these circumstances, and just living this world. And, and I think number one, intellectual humility is important. Um, we all don't know as much as we think we do, and we could all be more intellectually humble and be more open-minded to different perspectives. I mean, that's the first sort of mindset thing I think is really critical for people to have. And another thing that's going on is there's a lot of emotional responses right now and emotions are, uh, especially negative emotions. They're historically and evolutionary. They're they're they're important for for health, um, the fight or flight mechanism we have protects us, um and narrows our focus. But a lot of people, um are having significant negative emotions just on things that they don't need to have negative emotions about, and from the positive psychology world, they say negative emotions are important, but you want to have them in balance with positive emotions. They actually came up with a ratio of around three to one that the healthiest people have, um, uh, three for every three. You know, positive emotions and thoughts, there's one negative. So there's a balance, because you can't ignore the negativity, but I'm finding a lot of people right now we're having negativity in ways they don't need to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll give you an. I'll give you an example. I mean, I think a lot. You know people and I hate to divide us into left and right, but just for the purposes of this conversation, because we're so much more complicated and nuanced than that, look at the people on the right and the people on the right. Look at the people on the left in very stereotypical, generalized, almost hysterical terms and they're grouping people together in ways that it's unfair and doesn't necessarily apply. And the result of that is, when you then talk to somebody who on the other side from you, you're taking these notions, these generalizations, this demonization. A lot of them create a negative emotion and you're applying that to the person even before you speak to them, and something called social scientists, called confirmation bias.
Speaker 2:Okay so if you're talking to somebody let's assume somebody on the left is talking to somebody who voted for Donald Trump they may look at that person and say, oh, they're a Trumper. They believe in January 6th. And if you go in just with that thought to that conversation number one, it's wrong. You don't know that. But number two, more importantly it's going to give you a negative emotion and it's going to basically tip the scales in the conversation before it even happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. I'm glad you brought it up, though, and, for example, I see a lot of my friends on the left and I think this is what you're talking about, let me know if I'm wrong that refuse to accept or respect anything that someone on the right says, because they feel like that person voted for someone who has claimed that they want to do harm to someone they love an immigrant, a woman of childbearing age, a member of the LGBT community how do we get past that? Is that what you were talking about? With the passion or the With?
Speaker 2:the passion or the, the generalization and the bias, right. Yeah, I mean, that's a perfect example and I'm seeing that also. I'm seeing that quite a bit. I'm seeing friends who won't talk to their high school friends because they voted for somebody on the other side, and family members unable to speak. How do you get past it? The first question is, I mean, it's a very complex question but there's a lot of answers and in the workshops that we're providing, we're seeing a lot of profound impacts on a positive basis.
Speaker 2:And the first question is you know what's the goal of the conversation? You know, I guess let's just take it at the beginning, which is some people don't even want to have that conversation. Let's say, it's with a high school friend that they were friendly with and now they don't even want to talk to them, they unfriend them or they don't want to engage. Now I guess the question arises versus what would be the goal that you could have with this conversation. And there's a lot of goals for conversation, you know. One could be simply to connect with that person, that friend that you have, you know. The other could be to actually, you know, understand that other person, you know, have empathy, just so you can understand how people different from you think and just connect to that.
Speaker 2:That's a noble goal right um, well, I mean, I I think it's a very healthy goal and we'll talk about in a workshop, uh, how we're accomplishing that and how we can all do that, because how cool is it if that, if we could take different opinions that we disagree with. That we actually look at negatively and maybe we think we're harmful, and instead of having a negative emotional state, we have a more curious inquisitive state and we actually learn what is going on in their minds. So one way to get around. And just back to your question how about a simple question that somebody from the left who doesn't want to hear from a Trump supporter let's assume it's a friend of theirs. How you handle strangers and casual acquaintances and good friends will be different, but let's assume it's a high school friend that you have a relationship with.
Speaker 2:Sure, how about simply asking the question of why did you vote for Donald Trump? Now, a lot of them don't even want to even get there because they're so emotionally caught up in. If you voted for Trump, you're a bad person. And my response to those people is don't you want to know why your friend voted? Don't you want to understand them better? I mean, maybe it's a reason that you'll think is appropriate or proper or fine, just like why not ask the question? A lot of people are afraid of hearing the answer. But how can you be afraid of understanding your high school buddy?
Speaker 2:You know what's going on in their mind and you know, and people on the left are thinking if you voted for Trump, you're probably in favor of January 6th, then you're authoritarian. But no, that is an outrageous generalization. You know, very few people who voted for Trump believe that January 6th was a good thing. Very few people think that his character is impeccable. Very few Trump supporters think that authoritarianism is the proper way for our society to go politically in the future. And if you can sort of get beyond those generalizations, just say why talk to me more? You know? So we work on curiosity. We work on, you know, curious inquiry, just to understand other people and ask curious questions okay, I was going to ask about that.
Speaker 1:Is that a curious question? It is a curious question because I've a curious question, because I've heard that before, I've heard that term and it seems like a great way to start a conversation. Why, why did you vote this way? Whatever way it was, what would be a good follow-up to that? What do you expect he'll do? That will be good for you.
Speaker 2:Well, sure, but I think you're trying to step around eggshells. I mean, I think it's okay to go harder at it.
Speaker 2:I think you know again, this is a high school friend, right, you know? With a stranger maybe not, but let's just go back to curious questions for a second. Curious questions are questions designed. Good curious questions are designed to understand. Okay, there's bad curious questions. You know questions such as don't you think that the you know he will do this, you know places people on the defensive, puts him in a corner. That's not a good curious question. That's a question with a design attached to it and the design is not to understand A good curious question.
Speaker 2:You just want to understand them more. You want to understand their thoughts, their feelings, their beliefs, their experiences, their priorities. You just really want to connect To me. Conversation. The benefits of conversation and curious conversation are to connect with somebody Because, at the end of the day, we are social animals. We want to feel good about each other. We want to connect, even if we disagree. Why you vote for Trump could be and you can go right at it. It's like aren't you concerned about his character? Aren't you concerned that you know kindergarten kids will look at him and think that that is not the type of character that should be in a president? Are you concerned with his appointments? Are you concerned that this will happen? Do you believe he has authoritarian tendencies? Do you you know? Are you concerned about his lack of expertise in foreign affairs?
Speaker 2:It's okay, depending upon your audience, to ask these questions and because the goal to me and the workshops we're giving is to connect with others by asking curious questions, because you're respecting and not judging the other person. So if I'm respecting you, if my tone tone is so important is like you know, you know, so think about this question. One tone that is positive, you know, tone one's a negative, you know, are you concerned about his character or are you concerned about his character?
Speaker 1:There's a huge difference in those two.
Speaker 2:Huge difference. One is annoyed it's negative energy, it's putting somebody in the corner and the other one is like I really need to know. Maybe you can help me because I am concerned. So one of the benefits of curious questions is number one you're connecting with someone, you're not judging them. Number two you're learning more about what they think and your questions may help them refine what they're thinking, and I'm not suggesting that should be the goal, but your questions and their answers may help you rethink and understand better how you think about the issue. It's really great information. You're connecting all the way through and you're bonding and you're finding a lot of times people we found in our workshops, when people talk to each other with curiosity, when they disagree, they find so many elements of connection and commonality that they walk away from the conversation that like they feel good about it. They feel like, wow, that was a good conversation that they never thought they could have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, I think another thing that a lot of us do, um is that when we're listening and I think I'm guilty of this, I know I'm guilty of it, there's no think about it Is that we're not listening to understand, we're listening to respond. I think in my head I'm going I know what this guy's going to say when I ask this question and I'm going to get it when he gets. Oh, I wonder how that came out. I'm going I know what this guy's going to say when I ask this question and I'm going to get it when he gets. Oh, I wonder how that came out. I'm going to get him when he answers. And that's kind of dangerous, isn't it? We need to get away from that. How can we listen to understand better?
Speaker 2:Well, yes, we see that all the time and I'm guilty of it and many people are guilty of that. It's almost human nature to, when you're talking about a topic, to think about your perspective, to protect your perspective and then engage in the conversations. Though you're right, the other person is wrong and you're going to start talking to them to sort of bring them to that conclusion. Right, you know you're going to start talking to them to sort of bring them to that conclusion. Right, you know you're going to fail at the first moment. Right there, we've asked our students this, our college freshmen. You know, when you're having conversations with people, are you trying to win? You know what is the goal? And a lot of them say that no, no, I just want to talk to them about the issue. And they said, okay, if you want to talk to them about the issue and you don't want it to be a debate, you have to change your mindset from questions to win to questions to understand, and you create a mindset of the goal is to understand the other person so that I can walk away being better connected with a different view. And and so the first year we did this workshop with 600 students. We, we did a workshop that had them talk to people and then you, and then give your own perspective, maybe find common ground and compromise, and we found that was way too much work to do in a two-hour workshop because the students were having problems just asking curious questions. They couldn't get past the how do I ask curious questions? Not to win, but to understand. So in our workshops we just do a series of exercises. Your whole goal is to have the right tone to actively listening, and we talk about active listening techniques and to ask curious questions. And then here's what they do we give them a tepid question like ask the other person why they went to this school and this is Binghamton University where we're doing this program my alma mater and the goal is ask to understand, not to win. In this case there's really nothing to win and we've already gone over what tone, body language, eye contact, we've talked about.
Speaker 2:When somebody speaks, you paraphrase. We've talked about when somebody speaks, you paraphrase. So active listening techniques like paraphrasing or reframing, so that you're telling them oh, I heard you. Oh, in other words, oh, so what you're saying is so you're already out of this mindset of winning and you're into I hear you, is this what you're saying? You reflect on what they're saying. You don't cut them off. We have what's called a one mic rule, where one person speaks at a time which tells the other person I hear you, I'm listening. That one mic rule is one of the biggest things I think that we've taught students that help them get out of the wind, because as soon as they are listening and are trying like about to cut off, they realize oh no, don't cut off. My goal is to listen, not to respond.
Speaker 2:And then they ask curious questions. We talk about what was a curious question. It's open-ended, it's not leading or judgmental, it has a positive framing. So they actually develop the skill in practice. And then the other person they spoke to looks at all these about 20 skills that we've talked about and then grades them and says here's what I saw, you did generally, what you did right. We like to commend what they did well, so we're now reinforcing the curiosity. Then they do another exercise that's a little bit more difficult than another one, and then we get into political and social issues. So they actually are practicing over two hours, asking curious questions not to win and getting feedback on how well they did.
Speaker 1:That's amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah it's, it's amazing I mean just I mean you guys are developing a whole new generation of good listeners and good communicators, I think would you agree I think so.
Speaker 2:I mean I love hanging out with people in their 20s because they're incredibly smart. I mean a lot has been written about Gen Z and their anxiety, the amount of information they have available, their intense curiosity. I think they are. I believe in Gen Z as to bring us through this very complicated society that we have in the future and I share that with them. I want them to have the agency to feel that they can make a difference. And yes, I do feel at least in these workshops we're making an impact.
Speaker 2:My biggest concern is the maintenance of the behaviors and that's what we're working on next year, because you can do something in two hours and everybody walks away and says, wow, I learned a skill, but are they using that skill? And that is a great concern to me of behavior modification, how you change behavior on an ongoing basis. And we're working on follow-up exercises, journaling and other opportunities where the students can actually have these behaviors reinforced. And at Binghamton we're trying to create a culture at the campus where it's reinforced with the faculty etc for somebody like myself who's not going to school anymore.
Speaker 1:Um, how do these things become common practice? What can, can I do? Is it just being aware, when you're having a conversation, to ask curious questions and to practicing listening, to understand?
Speaker 2:I think, a mindset of. I want to understand people that voted differently or think differently before I start engaging with my perspective and what commonality and common ground we have, because those are more advanced energies that you need a foundation. So people, before they start talking about well, you know where they differ, where they agree and maybe where there's common ground, there has to be a foundation of understanding and respect. So the skills I'm talking about just are those preliminary skills of just and if you just try that right now and you know we've talked about left and the right, but we should talk the right to the left, I mean, you know, and the right has, you know, has the exact same. You know opportunities and issues and obstacles, you know, and very fair conversations are people. The right to the left is like, you know, the candidate that you were voting for. You know she changed from far left to moderate left, at least that's what I thought.
Speaker 2:What did you think about that? How do you feel about? You know, politicians just changing based on the tone and tenor. So we have talked about mostly one side to another, but it's bilateral. But I think step one is just start practicing being comfortable talking to people you disagree with, just to understand what they're thinking about. And, by the way, this relates to with your partner, with your spouse, with your kids, with your coworkers, and this isn't just social or political issues. If somebody has an issue with something that you did, instead of getting defensive, instead of leading with your emotions, just saying, wow, tell me what your thoughts are. And this is basic marital therapy 101, but a lot of us just don't do it, which is, oh, tell me more. What's your concern? How did it impact you? Why do you feel that way? What can I do differently? Which is not easy to do, but is enormously simple.
Speaker 2:And enormously effective if you want to have a healthy relationship.
Speaker 2:During my master's program in positive psychology at University of Pennsylvania, one of our lecturers was Isaac Proletensky, who was the leading researcher in the world on mattering, and his philosophies that are well-written, researched and supported is that we need to matter for human flourishing. And mattering was we feel valued and we feel we give value. The number one way to feel valued, to tell somebody that they have value, is to look at them in the eyes and ask them why do you feel that way? Tell me more. So I mean in terms of societal harmony, not just the relationship of the two people, but if that can be endemic to our society, that's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is Absolutely. You've given us a lot to chew on here, bill, but I wanted to ask you before I let you go about Braver Angels. I went on their website yesterday and I took one of their courses. It's a self-take course. That seems like an amazing organization. How did you get involved with them? I?
Speaker 2:heard David Brooks give a speech in 2016, after Trump first got elected about the Polarization Society and he mentioned there are some organizations out there. You mentioned Braver Angels. I got very excited, I learned about them, I became a moderator and then I took their content to Binghamton to beta test it. And they have this great program where one of the workshops is they teach the LAP skills L-A-P-P so that when you talk to somebody, you disagree with you, practice L-A-P-P you listen, you acknowledge, you pivot and then you give your perspective. So and I did some beta workshops on that and they weren't, in my mind, developed specifically for college students number one and number two. I thought it was too much to do in one workshop. So I looked at their listening and acknowledging and I said how can we create better listeners? And then the Binghamton Project I created the Civil Dialogue Project at Binghamton University, which is these workshops we've been talking about, was born out of that and we use some Braver Angel techniques.
Speaker 2:We use some techniques from Jonathan Haidt, his work. He has the Constructive Dialogue Institute and he's a brilliant social scientist and he just wrote the book the Anxious Generation. He's a leading force for getting cell phones out of schools because of the negative impact on Gen Z. So we take some of his work and then other social scientists and then we form them. But Braver Angels is a groundswell organization that has chapters in cities, counties and states all over the country. They are a positively impacting society. If you just Google Braver Angels you'll see they're in the press because of the work they're doing and it's mind-blowing and it's wonderful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll include a link to their website, as well as yours, in the show notes. You've given us a lot to think about, bill, and I appreciate it, and I hope that we can all go forward from here and we don't always have to agree. We don't always have to agree, but if we listen and give the other person the respect of listening, I think we'll be a lot better off.
Speaker 2:Mike, I think every conversation that we have with another person is an opportunity for a positive connection and a positive result. Every opportunity. Sure, that's idealistic, but I think it can help frame virtually every interaction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for the gift of your time, Bill. I do appreciate it, and we're going to have to do this again. Go into it a little bit more.
Speaker 2:Love to to Mike, and thank you for your amazing work. I'm familiar with your podcast. I think kindness, love, respect are all integrally created, you know, integrated, and they are, you know, what humanity should be. So thank you for your work.
Speaker 1:You're very welcome, take care.
Speaker 2:You too Bye-bye.
Speaker 1:I want to thank you for taking this time to listen to this episode with my guest, Bill Groner, and I hope that you're able to take something positive from the time that you spent here today. I hope that you can use the tools that Bill laid out to go out and have meaningful conversations with others that maybe before you couldn't. Maybe you'll be inspired, Maybe you'll be motivated, Maybe you'll be moved. If you experienced any of those positive feelings, please consider sharing this podcast with your friends and family. Also, feel free to follow us on all of our socials like Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn and TikTok.
Speaker 1:This podcast is part of the Mayday Media Network. If you have an idea for a podcast and need some production assistance, or have a podcast and are looking for a supportive network to join, check out maydaymedianetworkcom and check out the many different shows, like Afrocentric Spoiled, my Movie Generation Mixtape In a Pickle Radio Show, Wake Up and Dream with D Anthony Palin, Staxo Pax and their newest Time Pals podcast. We'll be back again next week with a new episode and we would be honored if you would join us. You've been listening to the Kindness Matters podcast. I'm your host, Mike Rathbun. Have a fantastic week.
