The Kindness Matters Podcast
So. Much. Division. Let's talk about how to change that. Re-engage as neighbors, friends, co-workers and family. Let's set out to change the world. Strike that. Change A World. One person at a time, make someone's life a little better and then do it again tomorrow and the day after that, through kindness.
Kindness is a Super-Power that each of us has within us. It is so powerful it has the potential to change not only your life but those around you, too. Let's talk about kindness.
The Kindness Matters Podcast
Unlocking the Secrets to Workplace Happiness and Efficiency with Sarah Ratekin
Discover the intricate dance of workplace happiness and efficiency with Sarah Ratekin, a US Navy veteran and the brains behind Happiness is Courage. Sarah shatters the simplistic view that employee contentment is the ultimate productivity hack. Instead, she delves into the delicate balance between strategic leadership and change management, offering a fresh take on driving profits and creating a workplace that buzzes with vitality. Tune in as we dissect workplace myths, pandemic-driven employment trends, and the Six Sigma Green Belt approach to problem-solving that Sarah swears by for organizations looking to thrive rather than just survive.
Feel the pulse of today's evolving work culture in a chapter-by-chapter journey that examines the essential elements of recognition, relationships, and the shifting dynamics between employers and employees. From dissecting the power of genuine appreciation regardless of job role, to navigating the challenges of remote and in-person collaboration, we traverse the complexities of contemporary work life. Sarah shares poignant stories, including her own, that paint a vivid picture of the quest for value and belonging in our professional endeavors. This episode is a deep exploration of the multifaceted nature of unions, employee empowerment, and the desire for a workplace where every person's contribution is valued and meaningful connections are the norm.
Make sure to follow all of Sarah's socials; Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok
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Do you like good coffee? Are you like me and go to bed in anticipation of a great cup of coffee in the morning (and afternoon, maybe). Then let me introduce you to my newest sponsor, Coffee Bros. They have built their business on the cornerstones of sustainability, quality, consistency, and freshness. From coffee to brewing techniques to coffee and espresso machines, they should be your go-to for all things coffee. And if you order from them, use the code Kind10 to get a 10% discount on your order.
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This podcast is part of the Deluxe Edition Network. To find other great shows on the network, head over to DeluxeEditionNetworkcom. That's DeluxeEditionNetworkcom.
Speaker 2:Kindness, we see it all around us. We see it when someone pays for someone else's coffee or holds the door open for another person. We see it in the smallest of gestures, like a smile or a kind word. But it's different when we turn on the news or social media. Oftentimes what we hear about what outlets are pushing is the opposite of kind. Welcome to the Kindness Matters Podcast. Our goal is to give you a place to relax, to revel in stories of people who have received or given kindness, a place to inspire and motivate each and every one of us to practice kindness every day. Hey, hello everybody, and welcome to the Kindness Matters podcast. I'm your host, mike Rathbun.
Speaker 2:Before we get into our show today and it's going to be an awesome one let me just tell you a few things. First of all, you want to go check out the Deluxe Edition Network, that's deluxeditionnetworkcom, and look for their podcast of the month for May. This month we've got Barstool Film School, which is a conversational comedy breakdown of some of your favorite flicks, old and new. Each episode, hosts Dylan Quarles and Cameron Roberts Take on your favorite flicks to determine if they pass the bar and join the ranks of truly excellent bar movies. And if you're looking for a film review podcast from a woman's point of view, check out the Barrel chicks. Grab a few cold ones and kick back as they take a walk. On the chick side of things also, take a look at the show notes on this episode and all my episodes for fantastic deals from two amazing companies.
Speaker 2:Sunday scaries produces cbds to help you overcome anxiety and stress. I've used these products. They work great. And also Coffee Bros they produce the best coffee. You guys, I've tried them all. I love every one of them. Both of these companies have offered discounts for my listeners. Go to the show notes. You'll get links to the websites and discount codes. And now let's get into the show. Hey, welcome to the show, everybody. I have a cool guest. My guest today is an expert in organizational effectiveness and talent management, as well as strategic leadership. She's also an expert in change management and performance optimization. She's also a US Navy veteran and the founder of Happiness is Courage, where she champions the idea that the core of a flourishing organization is deeply rooted in its people. Welcome to the show, sarah Radican.
Speaker 1:I'm super glad to be here, Mike.
Speaker 2:Oh God, I heard super sad. My heart just dropped. I'm super sad to be here, Super glad, happy. Glad, sad. Okay, hey, sarah, welcome. I should have also mentioned the fact that you are a purveyor of garden gnomes Maybe not purveyor.
Speaker 1:Aficionado? I don't know.
Speaker 2:Perfect, yes, and I'm sure there are many of my listeners out there who also appreciate the gnome duke garden, appreciate the Nome Duke Garden. So, so excited to have you on the show, sarah, because and I was thinking about this the other day after we talked about this notion Well, okay, wait, maybe I should back up a second why don't you tell me how do you become an expert in organizational effectiveness and talent management? Holy cow, I thought I was going to mess that up.
Speaker 1:I think part of it is you spend more than 10 seconds in modern workplaces and you see what doesn't and doesn't work right. My academic background is all business. All the time I've worked in a number of different industries and so crossed the industry barrier from government to large multinationals to nonprofits and you see what does and what doesn't work and then you distill that into some trends and you get a very fancy school to say, yes, you are a fancy pants and give you a cool hat and then you're an expert. Is that easy?
Speaker 2:I want a fancy pants certificate at least I don't have to have a diploma or anything and you say in your bio that you're really good at problem solving. You have this unique knack of looking at a problem and being able to dissect it in your head and just boop. That's just something you were born with.
Speaker 1:Probably to some degree. I think I started out playing Tetris as a very young adult and I say that with a little bit of tongue-in-cheek jest. And I say that with a little bit of tongue-in-cheek jest, but the truth is, being able to see patterns and how they, how they form, is really helpful when doing problem identification and resolution. I also I'm also a six sigma green belt. I didn't go as far as the black belt, but that process improvement approach really helps when it comes to figuring out what's the barrier and how do we, how do we correct it, like, how do we fix the challenges that are keeping us from? Whatever, the desired outcome is, in this case, a better employee experience.
Speaker 2:That's fantastic, yeah, well, because when we think about you know, it's because ever since the pandemic right first there was that employee shortage and now you have, and people were doing everything they could think of to get employees in the door right and get them to stay, and there were a lot of reasons that employees A either didn't want to come or B didn't stay employees.
Speaker 3:A either didn't want to come or B didn't stay.
Speaker 2:But I mean, we all know that employees, however you might think of them, are the thing that drives your profits right, and so it would make a certain amount of sense that you keep those employees happy.
Speaker 1:Is that what we're talking about here? Well, I think that's the common narrative and I'm not sure that's the right way to go about it, honestly. So when I talk about workplace happiness, that's sort of what I get accused of. Well, you just want us to make people happy all day? You just want to throw money at people? Yeah, well, that's, that's shenanigans.
Speaker 1:Honestly, now I will say, before we discuss anything else and lose all of the listeners, that if people are not paid enough to support themselves and feed their kids and keep the lights on and that kind of stuff, that absolutely does lead to unhappiness. Right, that's for sure. True, and at a certain point, more money does not lead to more happiness, and people argue this with me all the time. Oh, if I won the lottery, I'd be happy. You might be the statistical anomaly, but the data would suggest that that is not true. You would be enthusiastically joyful for about two minutes and then you would adapt to the size of your fishbowl, and whatever was making you unhappy previously would still make you unhappy today. So I like to say that happiness is not the goal. It's the gauge of how things are going, because that's all emotions are, is the dashboard on our life, and shooting for happiness in a vacuum is silly um and counterproductive yeah, for sure, I, I like that, okay, um, because, yeah, and I, I have.
Speaker 2:I actually wrote a book about being happy and and it's true, because, yeah, you're happy for, about I was thinking about that guy. There was one person who won the $1.3 billion, what was it? But I mean, how many people win the lottery? I think a disproportionate number of them are very, very unhappy after a certain amount of time. Right, because happiness, yeah, you're right, money doesn't buy happiness. So when we talk about employees being happy, what kinds of things are we talking about?
Speaker 1:So happiness is an individual experience. Well, so happiness is an individual experience, and everybody kind of has to decide for themselves the things that create an environment where that happiness organically appears on their shoulder right. That being said, as a general rule, there are two primary drivers of life satisfaction and job satisfaction, and they are literally that we understand how the work we're doing has value, however we measure that and however you know, however, our social group measures that and that. That's the first part, and the second part, which I think is where our streams intersect, is that they have good quality relationships with other people, usually people that we spend time with. So I think those two factors are, time and time again, are the things that come into play when we think about am I happy? Am I happy, however that manifests in our world?
Speaker 2:Okay, all right, that's a great point. So is it a company's job to make an employee happy or give them the tools to make them happy? Is that the better point?
Speaker 1:I think it's a company's job to get out of the way when it comes to the things that make them happy. Is that the better point? I think it's a company's job to get out of the way when it comes to the things that make people happy. So, when we think about the first piece of that, those two things right, the understanding of the value that we bring. So, for example, most organizations that I'm familiar with have like some kind of an awards program for their employees and a lot. If they have any kind of a sales department, there's usually a top salesperson of the year award or awards plural cool. Meanwhile, the rest of the company does either doesn't have those cool awards programs because the marketing department has the only budget that that allows for that, or they are almost never included in the reindeer games, right. So you might get the like throwaway award, like best costume at the company Halloween party or something silly, but that doesn't really reflect the value that you bring to the organization and how you contribute to its success, which is why, generally speaking, accountants as a job pool are actually some of the least satisfied people, bar none like trash. People are happier than accountants by far. So I think that's a piece of it. So I think companies need to do a better job of shaping their appreciation and recognition system so it's not just tied to who is signing the biggest contracts, because, as we all know, it takes an army to make those sales contracts come to fruition. You might have the most crackerjack sales salesperson in the world, but if your IT department can't write the program or your your customer service is garbage or your logistics team can't deliver the product, it doesn't matter. So everybody plays in that space and needs to be acknowledged for that.
Speaker 1:And so the other piece of that then is the relationships.
Speaker 1:And, oh my gosh, I feel like this is a dangerous space to walk into, because there's such a heavy conversation right now about remote versus in-person work, and I don't want to make it sound like I endorse either model completely, because I think either remote or in-person or hybrid work any of those can lead to spaces that allow for people to develop relationships within their teams, which is important, and we also have to give people space to develop relationships that aren't necessarily working team related, because it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 1:I mean again, if you have a bad, if you have a bad relationship, that's going to cause dissatisfaction, but if you have kind of a neutral relationship with your co workers, that may or may not change your happiness on the job. But, boy, you can also have a great relationship with a couple of your clients or with a couple of your vendors, or with the barista where you get your coffee every morning. So just get out of the way and let people figure out the ways that make the most sense for them to create those relationships and nurture them versus punishing them. And I think that's where companies can like actively participate in the process as well as actively not adding grit into the gears, like don't put ridiculous overbearing policies in place, you know that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:Right, For sure that's. That's really interesting. I like that.
Speaker 1:So when you is not that passive aggressive, oh bless your heart. Or Midwest, nice kind of passive aggressive.
Speaker 2:Kindness versus kindness.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So I would like to see more people have a little bit more awareness of how kindness actually works and what it actually is, and stop using it as a cop-out for not having hard conversations. That being said, you do not have to be a bully to be able to communicate difficult topics. You can do that with kindness, and doing so and being transparent about the hard stuff is actually bringing that conversation to a place where you still respect the other people in the conversation and you create a space where they feel valued as contributing members of the team, which just leads to better outcomes for everybody sure, and it leads ultimately, that leads to more productivity.
Speaker 2:Higher productivity, right yeah?
Speaker 1:higher profits, which you know, which which do matter in most industries, those, those still matter, yeah for sure.
Speaker 2:So yeah, give me an example of what you were just talking about.
Speaker 1:Well, like I think about a client I recently worked with. So they're in the healthcare industry and that's a hard space right now. Right that there's a lot of unresolved trauma as a result of the pandemic and, to be fair, there's a lot of unresolved trauma from decades of shenanigans in the industry. So that's real and so we all know that right now it's complicated to hire and retain nurses and physicians for a bevy of reasons, and what I'm seeing happen and what I saw with this client was an unwillingness to have the difficult conversations, and the literal quote was well, we can't do that because we lead with kindness here.
Speaker 2:I hope you're enjoying the show. So far, we'll be right back with more of my conversation with Sarah Radican after this message from a brand new Deluxe Edition Network podcast.
Speaker 3:Are you tired of seeing the world through a whitewashed or eurocentric lens? Do you want to learn how to view the world from a more black point of view? Then check out afrocentric, the podcast that explores the importance of an afrocentric gaze while navigating white spaces, hosted by me, morgan gray. Each episode features thought-provoking conversations on black culture, black perspectives, as well as the black experience, because here we understand that black lives are not a monolithic experience and there is more than one way to view it.
Speaker 3:Our goal is always to advocate, discuss and inform black Americans about the importance of evolving past their perspectives through an Afrocentric lens. Subscribe to Afrocentric today on your favorite podcast platform and join the conversation on social media using hashtag Afrocentric. I'll talk to you guys soon. Bye-bye.
Speaker 1:And you know, it reminded me of a person I know who has a couple of small children and is reluctant to set boundaries around their kids' behavior because they don't want to be abusive. And I 1,000% endorse parents and managers and leaders not being abusive towards the people that they are responsible for.
Speaker 2:Fair enough, yeah.
Speaker 1:But the problem we saw with this client was the situations that were leading to radical turnover were really personality issues and the leadership, the frontline leadership in these nursing units were not given the training and the tools to be effective in their space, which is not limited to this organization. I see this a lot.
Speaker 2:Oh, no yeah.
Speaker 1:So this person didn't know how to be a good manager and they for sure were not a good manager, but they were going to get you better. If you can't have that conversation and that doesn't mean you have to like, send them out behind the woodshed and paddle their backside and, you know, put them on a pip or whatever Like you can have that conversation in a way that is productive. I think when we see this in organizations, people have forgotten or maybe never knew that you can have these conversations in ways that are productive and there are a ton of resources for people who aren't just intuitively good at that kind of stuff. I mean, most of us aren't good at it, but you can learn.
Speaker 2:Oh for sure. Yeah, I think you feel like either it's you have to be a I don't do this on my show very often, but I'm going to you have to be a hard ass, or you have to be a pushover, and that there's no in-between space there.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And by being the pushover, you're actually creating more problems for your organization than maybe if you were being a hard ass. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I think they both lead to really bad situations and I'm former military so I'm familiar with that drill instructor methodology, which I suppose serves a purpose in some spaces. But I will honestly say that I do not think even the military has changed its approach in many ways, recognizing that that was maybe socially acceptable or perceived to be beneficial for certain applications, but for the vast majority of humans we do not thrive when we are always being threatened and physically, verbally accosted. So I mean, if the Marines can soften their approach of humans, we do not thrive when we are always being threatened and, and you know, physically, verbally, accosted. So I mean, if the marines can soften their approach, so can jim the frontline manager at this at the gas station. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like it's silly to act otherwise I can't even imagine what what basic training looks like. I was in the air force um from 79 to 88. So I did my what.
Speaker 1:So I'm I'm former Navy and you know there's a little sibling rivalry here, and so I was going to say that most branches bootcamp probably looks like what yours looks like. I say that with love. I say that with love, mostly Wait say that again.
Speaker 2:I, you know, yeah, for sure, I. I am again you know, yeah, for sure, I am sure that boy Staff Sergeant, what was his name? Persons? Staff Sergeant Persons was my drill instructor. I can't believe I remember that. But yeah, I mean, things need to change from time to time and and there are ways to to go about having those hard conversations without getting hr involved, shall we say absolutely, and the truth is that does go back to that building relationships.
Speaker 1:I mean that relationship doesn't have to be that you go out and get a beer after work or whatever either, and I think that's the other piece of it. There is this there's this like loss of awareness that a friendly professional relationship, friendly relationship, doesn't necessarily mean that you also like babysit each other's kids and go out to the movies together. You know there's um, there are flavors of relationship that are not always the same in personal and professional lives. They might be, and there's not necessarily a bad thing about in that situation, but you can have a positive, nurturing, supportive relationship in the workplace that is filled with kind intentions, that leads to just so much stronger tribe building and at the end of the day, that's what we're really talking about.
Speaker 1:How are we building these connections that people feel like they belong to something? Because we're going to always, we will always put our best effort into the space where we feel like we belong. And even though many of us have had not so great formative, you know, childhoods or early work relationships or whatever, that's not the, that's not the goal right. Those, those bad experiences are not the. We shouldn't be trying to replicate those when we move into the next chapter of our professional lives. So I think that's, that's just, that's a piece of it, and those relationships can be power and are powerful motivators. And then we see better retention, less turnover, less absenteeism, the whole laundry list of things that companies are worried about, and rightfully so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I know the pandemic changed the workplace seismically, but were we ever, as a corporate nation whatever you want to call it did we ever have a grasp on relationships? I mean, was there ever a time that we knew what we were doing and employees felt valued?
Speaker 3:I think so.
Speaker 2:My dad worked for an airline for 42 years. You don't see that level of dedication to a job. I mean, yeah, yes, it was his career and he loved doing it, but at the end of the day, it was a job.
Speaker 1:So I think the answer to your question is yes, and I'm not going to say it was perfect. I don't like the glory days, you know, days approach to comparing yesterday and today, right, but let's look at the difference, right. I mean back in the 30s, 40s, 50s or the 1870s or whatever people. First of all, people weren't as mobile as they are now, so they kind of had a smaller worldview, which meant that their local community, whatever that was, was much more a tribal in its perception. People would identify as being from a small town, wherever, as opposed to being a Minnesotan or a Hoosier or whatever, right? So I think that was a piece of it. And so when your identity is tied to a place and your employer is part of that place and the fabric of the community is more tightly woven, that is a different approach.
Speaker 1:Now, that being said, there was plenty of workplace abuse that happened in those days too. For lots of people. I think the paradigm was different, I think, and and also the salary differentials were also quite a bit different, right? So we're in a completely different world now, where ceo pay is like I don't know, like 300 or 400 times the average salary as employee now, where it used to be like 30 or 40. So that's changed. The us versus them or the in group versus out group psychology of it and back in in my, you know, in our parents era, when you could work for a company for 30 or 40 years and you would get your pension and retire. That was cool. That no longer exists in most spaces. I mean, I've worked for companies as they are transitioning away from having their pension plans and that's a huge shift in the sense of I'm taking care of you and then you're going to take care of me. That doesn't exist anymore. And now we're talking about things like social security and that's a hot topic. And will my kids have social security? I don't know right, and they're in the workforce now. So I think that's a piece of it.
Speaker 1:And there was a time when you could start in the mailroom and work your way up and get a reasonable salary for it. But the data is pretty powerful now. People who stay with the same employer and don't job hop, as they call it, actually see a significant decrease in their earnings over time, because a company will pay more to hire somebody from the outside than they will by promoting somebody from the inside, and that is just real. I don't know how we got to that place. I don't know why we devalue our internal talent as a general rule. I think that is a problem that more companies need to address if they want to maintain their talent and stop experiencing the brain drain that we're seeing. But, to your point, the market is weird, and while during the pandemic it was a little bit more of an employee's market where people were begging people to please stay, please don't quit, please join our company, we're in the exact opposite right now, and that's a pretty hot topic as well.
Speaker 2:So it's just it's a that's just in four years. It switched that fast.
Speaker 1:Radical huh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and for what it's worth. My dad worked for an airline, Northwest Airlines. They're Delta now, but he started here in Minneapolis right after World War II, 1946. And he retired, you know, in 82, 83. And again, you know he loved what he did. I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but they were also a union.
Speaker 1:I have strong feelings about unions and they are generally positive. Now, I would agree that sometimes unions get a little sticky and they get a little big for their britches, but the whole purpose of it is to prevent employer abuse, right, and so I think that goes to. What I see is people who work in union shops feel like somebody is advocating for them, which does lend to my work has value, because somebody Part of that heart, happiness, yeah absolutely, absolutely, and they have a built-in relationship.
Speaker 1:They belong to something by definition Absolutely, and they have a built-in relationship. They belong to something by definition. So I think companies could take a page out of that and find ways to build a brand identity that people want to be associated with and that actually means something, and that doesn't just mean you give them a T-shirt and a coffee cup.
Speaker 2:You have to actually build a brand that means something that people can attach their values to and and feel connected. Yeah for sure I am. My dad and I had we had a complicated relationship when it came to unions. Um, because I would see, every couple of years or so his union would go on strike and my dad would be out of work, but not out of work because he always found other work. He'd work at the local gas station, you know, to supplement. And then one year they went on strike and my dad had been.
Speaker 2:He knew he was coming up on retirement and so he had a lot of seniority and he wanted to use that to go in. The airline was going into San Diego and his plan was to go to San Diego with the airline and then retire there, and that's where he and my mom would retire. And then they went on strike and he thought, hmm, my odds of opening up San Diego are much lower if I walk the picket line, sure. So he did something that in probably 38, 40 years he had never done, which was to cross the picket line.
Speaker 3:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:I know, and it got to the point where they sent him to Topeka, kansas, to work. And I remember at one point during the strike he was out of town and his car was parked at the airport. They keyed it, keyed the word scab into it.
Speaker 1:Sure sure.
Speaker 2:Somebody came by with a shotgun in the middle of the night and blew out our picture window in our house. Oh my gosh, I think they thought that my mom had gone with him to Topeka, but she was home. It could have been horrible, and so for that reason my view of unions was not quite aligned with him. I appreciate them more now that particular they had just joined I'm not going to say which union it was, but and they had a reputation as being a more radical union.
Speaker 2:But yeah so I see unions as much more desirable these days than I did back then.
Speaker 1:Well, I think, like any tool, they can be applied productively or destructively, and I think that's what happened. And I live in Indiana, which was a pretty heavy union state for a long time with the auto industry and so on, and most of the people like in my bracket that grew up with parents or even themselves were in union shops. And then, to your point, I think they got a little power hungry because, like anything else, you know, a little power can go to people's heads. But the principle to me still stands that people need advocates and unfortunately HR is not seen as the advocate for the people. You know that's just real.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and when did that change? Because HR was usually reliable as far as looking out for the employees, wasn't it Never?
Speaker 1:I mean I don't really know when it changed. I think that'd be an interesting research project honestly, but I can certainly say that in the last 10 or 15 years HR has been seen as the disciplinarian for the organization more than anything else. And the interesting thing is being on the inside in a lot of organizations you'll see that HR is just starting to get a seat at the executive table, so they have been seen as the sub, like a support function. You have housekeeping and you have HR and those are kind of the two support I'm mostly joking, but but they haven't had like strategic input in a lot of organizations, which is really unfortunate because in in theory, in theory, your HR people should be the ones to help set the tone, not just with like compensation conversations or when you do and don't hire or fire somebody, but also how do we shape a culture that is inclusive, how do we shape a culture that is flexible? How do we create a growth trajectory for our employees?
Speaker 1:You know, I almost think that there is a space for companies to split how they see HR into that sort of transactional employee support function with like salaries and health benefits, and that's like one side of the shop and then the other side is the organizational design and the learning and development, because those are really two very different mindsets. You know people like I. I work in HR. I don't have any idea how benefits are. You know coordinated, how they are negotiated, nor do I want to. That's a weird space that doesn't interest me at all. I'm into the how do people tick and how do we get them happier as they're ticking along side of things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. Wow, this has been so enlightening, sarah. I really, really appreciate your. I mean because it is, it's an important topic. I mean kindness, yes, obviously, but also when it comes to working life. I mean, how do those two fit together? And I really appreciate how you've enlightened that.
Speaker 1:I mean, I just see a world where stress and conflict are buzzing along at higher levels than I can remember in most of my adult life, and when I think about the ways we interact with each other, when we can do that from a place of kindness and curiosity, we tend to decrease that inflammation that occurs just naturally when you have organizations with lots of people in them. So we have to talk about these things. It's not the normal way of doing business. So we have to have, raise awareness and give people the tools to to do better. No better, do better, and that's what we're here to do.
Speaker 2:Amen, Sister preach. I appreciate your time so much today, Sarah. Thank you so much for giving me that time and and coming on and having a chat with me. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:I appreciate you, Mike. Thanks so much.
Speaker 2:I think I learned more in that 30-minute segment than I have ever learned in my life and I hope you guys take away something from it too. It was a great conversation to have with Sarah Radican, and let me know if there's something. If you want to reach out to her, all of her information will be in the show notes. She's a fantastic resource and a fantastic person and, again, I hope you took away something positive from that conversation and that will do it for this episode of the Kindness Matters podcast. We will be back, as always, next week, but until then, be that person who roots for others, who tells a stranger they look amazing and encourages others to believe in themselves and their dreams. You've been listening to the Kindness Matters podcast. I am your host, mike Rathbun. Have a fantastic week.
